Higgins Clashes with Boyd-Barrett over Labour Party

by Curious Mon Aug 27, 2007 22:49

I presume these two articles were actually seperate? Which papers? Or were they connected?

by Dermot Lacey Tue Aug 28, 2007 09:40

I presume too that the public have made up their mind also:

SP - No Dail seats and no Seanad seats and ( I think) 4 Council seats.
SWP/PBP No Dail seats and no Seanad seats and no Council seats.
Labour 20 Dail Seats, 6 Seanad seats and over 140 Town and County/City Council seats.

by indyjourno Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:10

Dermot,

That is a really ridiculous argument you have there. No discussion of policies, impact, or potential influence. Instead we have the argument of "mine is bigger than yours"

It goes something like this Dermot
Labour 20 Dail Seats, 6 Seanad seats and over 140 Town and County/City Council seats.
Fine Gael 51 Dail Seats, 15 Seanad seats and over 290 Town and County/City Council seats.
Fianna Fail 77 Dail Seats, 28 Seanad seats and over 301 Town and County/City Council seats.

So Labour are an irrelevant, ageing party that are in decline because of representatives such as yourself Dermot who come on here, make idiotic arguments, behaves like a spoilt schoolchild, and completely puts people off joining Labour.

by C Murray Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:27

for clarity- Mr lacey , do you find the Irish Independent Coverage either jaundiced or sexist.??
For two days now the editorials and discussion have illuminated alone Eamon Gilmore
with small little pictures of finance spokesperson Joan Burton, these are Juxtaposed
with headlines declaring FG advertising 'jobs for the boys'.
I note that Labour always have a strong women's group and direct contacts with NGO's but
there is no evident parity of esteem in the newspaper for the work of MS Burton, or in presentingany leadership contest with anything other than an 'also ran' slant regarding ms Burton.
I think that Labour Women should study the biased coverage which indicates the lack of interest
in female leadership in one natioanl daily.

by Ciaran C , Belfast Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:49

I've had bigger disagreements with RBB than that, regarding all sorts of stuff and still shared a pint with him afterwards. Higgins could well have had steam coming from his ears but thats just his way.
He is right in a way though, from what i have seen the only worthwhile left tendency in the Labour party may exist amongst some of their youth wing, but even nurturing that would mean weaning people away from their party structures, a task made more difficult when talented youths are being corrupted by praise from on high and promises of possible candidateship in the future.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Aug 28, 2007 13:29

I have not noticed the tendency in the Irish Independent that you refer too. Personally I see Joan Burton as an exceptionally able member of the Labour Parliamentary team and long may she remain so.

In relation to the previous comment and response all I am saying is despite much of the nonsense on Indymedia in relation to the Labour Party we remain by far the largest recipient of Left support in this country and when members of the far too many micro left groups stand for election the lef voting electorate clearly deem them irrelevant. Far left groups may not like Social Democracy However I do and will continue to advocate it at every stage.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Aug 28, 2007 13:29

I have not noticed the tendency in the Irish Independent that you refer too. Personally I see Joan Burton as an exceptionally able member of the Labour Parliamentary team and long may she remain so.

In relation to the previous comment and response all I am saying is despite much of the nonsense on Indymedia in relation to the Labour Party we remain by far the largest recipient of Left support in this country and when members of the far too many micro left groups stand for election the lef voting electorate clearly deem them irrelevant. Far left groups may not like Social Democracy However I do and will continue to advocate it at every stage.

by Con Carroll Tue Aug 28, 2007 13:51

I fully agree with Joe Higginns

by C Murray Tue Aug 28, 2007 15:19

Sexism or Stereotying of Perceived Gender Roles?
For two days now the front page , right column of the Irish Independent has featured
headlines stating that Eamon Gilmore leads the Labour Leadership Race. In the editorial
and opinion section this was underscored yesterday by a headline 'Jobs For the Boys-
FG seeking TD hopefuls' . Today,a full page on Howlin removing himself from the race,
an editorial with cartoon of E Gilmore and a passport sized photo of Joan Burton and of
Tommy Broughan. Ms Burton is not being presented as a viable candidate by the Irish
Independent who appear to be underscoring a gender approach to a Political Party's
electoral process- or is it just interference, we we are all used to, in a media led meritocracy?
As a feminist of 17 years, I find the Irish independent coverage to be biased and slanted
toward the male game of Politics, there are treatises and conventions on:-

1. Providing neutral coverage of Leadership contest.
2. Providing each candidate with parity of esteem and recognition of their ability and
history within the party which they represent.

Dermot Lacey, Councillor, has said on this newswire that he recognised the issue.

The Labour Party should really be looking at the presentation of the women in their party
through the mainstream media and asking why they occupy less space and why
editorials are skewed toward the male candidacy.

Labour Party have a long tradition of a viable Women's Group with strong connections to
the National Women's Council and Non-Governmental Organisations, I do not see
any of this being part of a campaign in leadership terms and the O Reilly Coverage
is deeply offensive. The first aim in re-dressing gender balance issues is to show
to young women who work hard and seek political careers is that their peers are
functioning within our electoral system. The Last government FF/PD had a paucity
of coverage of women with most PR and media stuff led largely by Either of the Aherns
or Minister Mc Dowell. the most significant legislations incl. The SIB and the Criminal
Law (sexual Offences) Bill were not addressed by women, with Ms Harney leaving the
Chamber within fifteen minutes of the opening. We have the lowest Gender representaion
in Europe.

The Irish Independent does disservice to holding all candidates in Parity of esteem.

by Gaz B -(A)- Tue Aug 28, 2007 15:20

"when members of the far too many micro left groups stand for election the lef voting electorate clearly deem them irrelevant."

So the only gauge of an organisations policies and beliefs is its electoral performance? Is that an admission that FF and FG are far better parties with better policies than Labour simply because they have more significantly more Dail seats? By that logic Labour has been largely irrelevant for the history of its existence serving only to support one right wing party in afight against another.

Are all Labour members who have not stood for election and succeeded insignificant along with the parties extraparliamentary activities?

More Irish people buy the Indo than any other paper, buy more westlife cds than any other band and vote for FF candidates more than any other party - popularity is hardly synonymous with better. Whats the point of moving to the right and getting elected when your policies are no different to FF/FG, that has nothing to do with 'labour'. Labour is never going to compete with FF or FG on the right . Like the ATGWU document produced pre-election, Labours only long term hope is is to try and cement a place on the left (rather than running to the popular right for votes), refusing to eneter into coalitions with FF or FG and by building closer links with the unions and other leftish parties. Of course, it won't. It will offer lower taxes, support for social partnership, criticise unions as vested interests etc - a labour party in name only.

by C Murray Tue Aug 28, 2007 15:31

Liz Mc Manus, Tommy Broughan, Roisin Shorthall and Joan Burton are announcing
their candidacy. Howlin has pulled out and announced in the last 24 hours that he would
not run, which the Irish Times suggests will boost Ms Burton.
http://www.ireland.com/

The I.T report is accompanied by a pic of E.Gilmore who is the only candidate who has
formally announced his candidacy. Interesting'First offf the Blocks' coverage by the Irish
Independent who have subverted a woman Candidate's political history to one passport sized
photograph and a by-line.

Any members of the Labour Party care to respond to Tony O reilly's biased approach to
the electoral contest to elect a new leader to the head of the Labour Party. Gender awareness
and parity of esteem necessitates equality of coverage and this has not happened over the
last 48 hours?

by D_D Tue Aug 28, 2007 16:02

DL: "and when members of the far too many micro left groups stand for election the left voting electorate clearly deem them irrelevant."

Joe Higgins: TD for ten years
RBB: almost elected a TD

Perhaps Dermot is not including the SP and SWP among "the far too many micro left groups" who stand members for election.

by indyjourno Tue Aug 28, 2007 16:25

Dermot, why are you in the Labour Party? It clearly states on the Labour Parties website that Labour are a socialist party, not a social democratic one http://www.labour.ie/party/

You must be in the wrong party Dermot, are you uncomfortable being in a socialist party?

by Con Colbert Tue Aug 28, 2007 16:35

Labour is to the right of Fianna Fail

http://www.independent.ie/todayspaper/letters/gilmore-s....html

by johnone Tue Aug 28, 2007 17:42

Richard Boyd Barret is using SWP as a stepping stone to the Labour Party. For someone involved in such a irrelevent party he gets massive media coverage. I wonder why this is? maybe its because of the double barrell surname?

by johntwo Tue Aug 28, 2007 20:14

johnone said "Richard Boyd Barret is using SWP as a stepping stone to the Labour Party. For someone involved in such a irrelevent party he gets massive media coverage. I wonder why this is? maybe its because of the double barrell surname?"

No. I think he got coverage because some of the Labour leadership candidates were talking about working with others on the left. RBB/SWP send in an oportunistic press release welcoming this and a journalist with a dealine copies and pastes. Simple as that. As to your point about RBB/SWP moving towards the Labour Party I think there is an element of truth to that. Much of RBB's election literature was not too different from Labour.

by Aine Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:44

This is hardly a clash.

RBB is saying Labour should return to its socialist roots but he's clearly well aware that they won't. JH is saying it would be great if they did but they're not going to.

The difference in strategy is that RBB looks to the building of a left-wing alliance in the here and now, whereas JH seeks the future creation of a new mass workers' party born from workers' struggle.

There's plenty of low level struggle going on in Ireland, and both organisations have cooperated a fair amount in recent years, so it's hardly beyond the realms of possibility that the two parties can sit down like adults and work this out.

by Dermot Lacey Wed Aug 29, 2007 13:08

Just to respond to Indyjourno's question. As a Social Democrat I am very happy in the Labour Party. I could not see myself being happy in either the SP or the SWP and in fairness to both of them I don't they would be happy if I was in either of their little groups.

by C Murray Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:10

Joan Burton TD and spokeperson on finance has withdrawn from the leadership contest
in the Labour Party, citing lack of internal party support and stating that the movement
within the party is to support E Gilmore's candidacy. She has announced her name
for deputy leader. Interestingly the media have focussed entirely on the male candidates,
with I.T now publishing Ruair Quinn's support for Gilmore. Irish Independent giving gilmore
unbalance three page spreads. Well its jobs for the boys in the Labour Party then?
Or is Liz MC Manus still in the running, it is amazing how free electoral process are governed
and directed by the media.(the I.T pushed the two party system in the run-up to the general election,
with coverage of the coalition or the rainbow dominating its pages)

(So why are women who work hard ignored as candidates - Ireland is the
lowest in terms of socialist women and gender% representation in Europe)

by ISN member Thu Aug 30, 2007 15:10

Calling this a 'clash' between the SP and SWP might be a mite dramatic, but it definitely signals a difference in perspective.

Personally I agree with Higgins, though I would add that many on the left have the unfortunate knack of confusing labourism with socialism. The Labour Party has no socialist roots to return to - it was initiated by the trade unions in 1912 (but didn't really take on a real existence until c.1922) as a labourist organisation. It was reformist from the outset, despite a few nods in the direction of Connollyism. It doesn't have 'socialist roots'.

by Bill O'Brien Thu Aug 30, 2007 16:13

Is it Michael D. or Joe?

http://www.labour.ie/press/listing/1184578626238532.html

by C Murray Thu Aug 30, 2007 19:24

E Gilmore it seems has the backing of the party faithful, and Ms Burton has thrown in the hat
for the deputy leader, Ms Mc Manus has not yet declared. So at the mo, its a jobs for the
boys dealie:- http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1101...omnet

by Dermot Lacey Sat Sep 01, 2007 16:13

Both of the declared candidates for Deputy Leader so far are women - so hardly jobs for the boys at this stage

by C Murray Sat Sep 01, 2007 19:29

Liz Mac Manus said on the radio news this evening that she would not stand against
Gilmore as leader cos he was so good and she is accepting of that, which means that
she is not rocking the boat and that she is up against Burton to retain the position
she held under Rabbitte.
There is no other declared candidate for the leadership of the Labour Party.
Ms Mac Manus did not withdraw her nomination- she refused to put herself
forward.
do the sums.

Burton withdrew.+
Mc Manus did not stand.

= ye have an unopposed male leader in a one horse race who was given a 48 hour
full media coverage by a National daily. I am surprised and actually rather
pissed off that the women of the Labour Party are not contesting.So of course
Mc Manus is self-nominating for her old job back, against Ms Burton, who
did not get a look in.

by Dermot Lacey Sun Sep 02, 2007 16:57

Liz Mc Manus has declared that she is Not seeking to remain Deputy Leader and will be pursuing other political projects. Both of the declared candidates for Deputy Leader are women - Joan Burton and Jan O'Sullivan and both would make a great job of it.

by C Murray Sun Sep 02, 2007 18:19

ok, Dermott you got me there. instead of Liz we have Jan O Sullivan and Joan Burton
going to deputise under Gilmore, who is standing unopposed as male leader propped
by Tony O Reilly's Irish Independent , who gave him a 48 hour glowing head star
The coverage was biased and interefering.
Gilmore got a two full pages on two consecutive days, with full length photos and
front page right columns.

One of the pleasures of writing is this:- Politics are about peoples perceptions
and having attended the NWCI as a delegate and met with many of the Labour Women
I still do not understand why Joan Burton did not stay in the race. She has strong qualities
and experience on the benches. I am surprised that no-one seems interesting in competing for
the leadership except Gilmore, it appears unopposed handing over rather, than truly democratic.

related link:- http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84027