What does the government hide by hiding the Lisbon Treaty?

national | eu | opinion/analysis

Saturday May 17, 2008 11:56

by Howard Holby

The referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is in effect new government elections in Ireland

The propaganda recently launched by the government in support of the new federal EU constitution nicknamed as “Lisbon Treaty”, has failed to actually attach the text of the Treaty to their claims on the treaty. The voters of Ireland will be called to submit their votes on an international treaty that is not available for them as of today, less than a month before the referendum. By not providing information on this fact, the current government campaigns to promote a yes vote on the referendum, amounts to the deprivation of the Irish voters of their most fundamental constitutional-democratic right to fair and free elections.

The article includes a web address from where the consolidated version (the actual text) of the Lisbon Treaty can be downloaded.

The propaganda recently launched by the government in support of the new federal EU constitution nicknamed as “Lisbon Treaty”, has failed to actually attach the text of the Treaty to their claims on the treaty. The voters of Ireland will be called to submit their votes on an international treaty that is not available for them as of today, less than a month before the referendum.

The 272 pages on the widely advertised website www.lisbontreaty2008.ie include only the amendments to be applied to the existing EU treaties; however the website does not offer the text-base to be modified by these amendments, nor does it offer a consolidated presentation of these texts. How can the voters of Ireland be expected to make a decision on a treaty that they will never even see in full, only scattered fragments of it? Or every citizen of Ireland is expected to know all the existing EU treaties by heart, then to perform the necessary puzzle-game of insertions, deletions and modifications of these scattered texts?

What the government and all pro-Lisbon groups hide by hiding the Lisbon Treaty is:

- The inability of the “yes” side to justify their statements on the very basis of the text itself.

- The contradictions between the actual content/implications of the Lisbon Treaty and the official statements of the EU and the Irish government on the treaty.
Actual truth by the text of the treaty : abolishment of democracy and transparency by elevating non-elected bureaucrats to the top of the decision hierarchy over all Europe, abolishment of the current voting and other citizens' rights of ca 500 million citizens, loss of national sovereignty of the member states by the primacy of the Union law over the legislative decisions of the national parliaments, exclusion of the voters of 26 EU-states from the most essential decision of establishing the federal EU state itself, etc.
False statements held as the official ‘truth’ : “improved democracy”, “more transparency”, “increased role of the national parliaments in the EU’s decisions”, “increased involvement of the people in the EU’s decisions”, etc.

- The direct consequences of ratifying the constitutional Lisbon Treaty, such as the loss of national sovereignty in economical, political, economical, social, military and other perspectives, and the countless further negative consequences, such as the loss of military neutrality and loss of an independent tax regime, etc.

- The fact that as soon as the Lisbon Treaty would be ratified in all member states and the treaty would come into effect, the actual government and parliament functions currently performed by the national state officials will be transferred to the respective EU-institutions. In this regard the decision on the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty means no less than an equivalent of parliamentary elections on an essential level: the voters’ decision on whether Ireland would keep its current government and parliament or accept the government and parliament and other state offices in Brussels. By not providing information on this fact, the current government campaigns to promote a 'yes' vote on the referendum, amounts to the deprivation of the Irish voters of their constitutional-democratic right to fair and free elections.

On the other hand, a consolidated version has been offered for the voters to download on a website of a "NO to Lisbon campaign"-group, "Libertas: http://www.libertas.org/content/view/233/128/

The obvious reason for the openness of the "NO-groups" is that they have nothing to hide. They have provided objective information on the Lisbon Treaty, therefore the text itself only proves their justified stance against the treaty.

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Comments (12 of 12)

The Big Sham

by newsmedia - newsmedianews

Sat May 17, 2008 17:31

How man Irish politicians (or other EU state politicians) have actually read the Lisbon Treaty. As a qualified chief reporter of more than 20 years I have, and find it illegible in the extreme, being nothing more than a collection of amendements, additions and deletions. It refers to hundreds of other treaties and without access to reading them at the same time, the so-called Lisbon Treaty is nothing more than obfuscated politicospeak.

Anyone voting for this Treaty of the strength of information thay have been given is being taken for, and is acting like, a fool.

Over to you.

Worst Story, ever

by Damien

Sat May 17, 2008 17:53

The propaganda recently launched by the government in support of the new federal EU constitution nicknamed as “Lisbon Treaty” has failed to actually attach the text of the Treaty to their claims on the treaty."

Great conspiracy... only catch is that the website does include the text of the treaty. Perhaps you missed the large text that says "Download Treaty". Anyway here it is : http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/Lisbon_Treaty_English.pdf

"The voters of Ireland will be called to submit their votes on an international treaty that is not available for them"

Well ... except that it is available on the referendum commission site, and elsewhere.

"The 272 pages on the widely advertised website www.lisbontreaty2008.ie include only the amendments to be applied to the existing EU treaties; however the website does not offer the text-base to be modified by these amendments, "

Well ... except that it does include the full text.

"nor does it offer a consolidated presentation of these texts. "

Well .... except that it does.

"How can the voters of Ireland be expected to make a decision on a treaty that they will never even see in full"

Except that its widely available....

"Or every citizen of Ireland is expected to know all the existing EU treaties by heart"

No, just expected to listen to the various analysis and make up their mind.

This is the most stupid "story" I've ever seen on indymedia.

Lisbon Treaty vs what is believed to be the treaty

Sun May 18, 2008 13:53

Damien:

To enlighten you on the subject I repeat the main points of the article, -which you obviously failed to grasp - and I give specific details to make it easier for you to understand the "story".

The text you can download through the link
http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/Lisbon_Treaty_English.pdf
is ONLY a small part of the whole Treaty the voters will have to vote to. Before even starting to read the text the voters will have to combine these amendments with the existing EU-treaties. However, the website www.lisbontreaty2008.ie does not provide the link for downloading the existing treaties.

Instead of the actual text subject to the referendum what the voters can see is instructions for deletions, insertions, renumberings and other modifications. Here are some examples of the many:

GENERAL PROVISIONS
64) Article 61 shall be replaced by the following Chapter 1and Articles 61 to 61 I. Article 61 shall also replace the current Article 29 of the Treaty on European Union, Article 61 D shall replace Article 36 thereof, Article 61 E shall replace Article 64(1) of the Treaty establishing the European Community and the current Article 33 of the Treaty on European Union,
Article 61G shall replace Article 66 of the Treaty establishing the European Community and Article 61 H shall take over Article 60 thereof, as set out in point 62 above:

BORDER CHECKS, ASYLUM AND IMMIGRATION
65) Articles 62 to 64 shall be replaced by the following Chapter 2 and Articles 62 to 63b. Article 62 shall replace Article 62, paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 63 shall replace points 1 and 2 of Article 63, paragraph 3 of Article 63 shall replace paragraph 2 of Article 64 and Article 63a shall replace points 3 and 4 of Article 63:

JUDICIAL COOPERATION IN CRIMINAL MATTERS
67) Article 66 shall be replaced by Article 61 G, as set out in point 64 above, and Articles 67 to 69 shall be repealed. The following Chapter 4 and Articles 69 A to 69 E shall be inserted. Articles 69 A, 69 B and 69 D shall replace the current Article 31 of the Treaty on European Union, as set out above in point 51 of Article 1 of this Treaty:

POLICE COOPERATION
68) The following Chapter 5 and Articles 69 F, 69 G and 69 H shall be inserted. Articles 69 F and 69 G shall replace the current Article 30 of the Treaty on European Union, and Article 69 H shall replace Article 32 thereof, as set out above in point 51 of Article 1 of this Treaty:

The question I have raised in this regard is that the voters cannot be expected to know the contents of the referenced articles nor the location from where they can download the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty establishing the European Community (the text-base amended by above instructions).

The voters are especially not expected to understand immediately what the above mess actually means when applied to the respective parts of the existing treaties.

It is obvious that you have not even attempted to read the text, otherwise you would have understood what the "stroy" is about and would have realised that what the government offers as the treaty is not the final text and NOT the whole treaty subject to the referendum.

So you say, the voters are not expected to read what they sign, "just expected to listen to the various analysis and make up their mind."
Which analysis? Yours? Of the government, i.e. of those for whom the text to vote to is just what we read at:
http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/Lisbon_Treaty_English.pdf ?

If you change your mind and actually decide to read the treaty before making a decision, read the documents offered on the Libertas website: they have created a consolidated version of the treaties after applying the Lisbon amendments. There you will find the actual text subject to the referendum.

I advise that next time try to collect some information on the issue before commenting on it.

Enough of the Sensationalism....

Sun May 18, 2008 16:07

1) "The text you can download through the link http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/Lisbon_Treaty_English.pdf is ONLY a small part of the whole Treaty".

Please provide evidence for your claim that this document is not the entire Lisbon Treaty. While we all know that it is not a consolidated presentation of all European law, your claim that the document published by the Referendum Commission is not the entire treaty is amazing. If you could show this to be true, the government would almost certainly fall.

2) "what the government offers as the treaty is not the final text and NOT the whole treaty subject to the referendum"

You don't even know what is being voted on. The referendum is on whether or not to modify the Irish Constitution, and it is this modification that is presented in the referendum commissions website. A consolidated presentation of these proposed amendments to the Irish constitution is presented at http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/ReferendumWordingEnglish.pdf

3) "The government .... has failed to actually attach the text of the Treaty to their claims on the treaty"

The full text of the treaty is widely available in many places, including the site of the referendum commission.

4) "The voters of Ireland will be called to submit their votes on an international treaty that is not available for them as of today" ....."a consolidated version has been offered for the voters to download on a website"

A shade contradictory, no?

Basic Law of Ireland (Bunreacht na hEireann)

by Shocked

Sun May 18, 2008 16:55

And what does it matter anymore what our Constitution says?

Our "Waste Management Amendment Act 2001" is unconstitutional?

So is our "National Monuments Amendments Act 2004"?

And there's more, apart from the two pieces mentioned above.

Where are President Mary McAleese's eyes? - and why has she been signing her name to illegal law for the past several years?

Why is she (and those who support her) being allowed to get away with this treasonous behaviour?

From bad to worse

by Exactly

Sun May 18, 2008 17:19

The more unconstitutional the Lisbon Treaty is, the more President Mary McAleese will enjoy signing it -- and the more support she will get from the most senior members of our legal profession.

for Shocked

by Mon

Tue May 20, 2008 09:06

It is unfair to blame M. McAleese for signing certain bills into law. Her alternative is to refer a Bill to the Supreme Court for judgement. If the SC accepts a law as constitutional then it is cast in stone and can never again be challenged. It is usually much wiser to allow a law to take affect so that if it is challenged in the future then there is a practical basis for such a challenge.

Reply to Mon Tue May 20, 2008 09:06

Tue May 20, 2008 13:34

The President of the Republic of Ireland has a duty under the terms of Bunreacht na hEireann (Constitution of the Republic of Ireland) to have doubtful legislation referred to the Supreme Court.

Whenever he or she fails in this duty, then doubtful legislation becomes "law" until (and if) it is successfully challenged in the courts of law: which is impossible to do if -- for ANY reason (including ones connected with corruption) -- senior members of the legal profession contrive to prevent this from happening.

Also, I don't understand the argument that laws can be "cast in stone and can never again be challenged".

Laws can be repealed.

"A repeal is the removal or reversal of a law. This is generally done when a law is no longer effective, or it is shown that a law is having far more negative consequences than were originally envisioned."

"Major repeals in history include: The massive Statutory Law Revision Act of 2007 in the Republic of Ireland, through which 3,225 Acts were repealed, dating back over eight centuries to 1171 and the earliest laws enacted by England when it began its invasion of Ireland. The statutes repealed include a number of Acts of significant historical interest, including an Act of 1542 providing that the Kings of England shall be Kings of Ireland. This Act is the largest single repealing statute in the history of Ireland."

The above pieces of text have been taken from the following address: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeal

shocked

by the digger

Tue May 20, 2008 14:24

What casued William Finnerty to start using the name "shocked", I wonder?

BTW, full marks to Damian on his evisceration of the sloppy non story that started this thread.

The President and Bunreacht na hEireann (Constitution of the Republic of Ireland)

by Worried

Tue May 20, 2008 18:57

=============

Article 26

"This Article applies to any Bill passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas other than a Money Bill, or a Bill expressed to be a Bill containing a proposal to amend the Constitution, or a Bill the time for the consideration of which by Seanad Éireann shall have been abridged under Article 24 of this Constitution."

=============

Article 26.1. 1°

"The President may, after consultation with the Council of State, refer any Bill to which this Article applies to the Supreme Court for a decision on the question as to whether such Bill or any specified provision or provisions of such Bill is or are repugnant to this Constitution or to any provision thereof."

=============

The full text of Bunreacht na hEireann is available via the following link:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLR_en___G...meta=

Vote No to Lisbon

by raggy

Thu May 22, 2008 12:57

you tube vote no - funny

Cóir's you tube presentation on Voting No to Lisbon.

It's very funny.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=mgRLs4_1KI0

Check it out.

To Damien - have you actually read the treaty?

Fri May 23, 2008 08:56

Damien: 1) "The text you can download through the link http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/Lisbon_Treaty_English.pdf is ONLY a small part of the whole Treaty".

Please provide evidence for your claim that this document is not the entire Lisbon Treaty. While we all know that it is not a consolidated presentation of all European law, your claim that the document published by the Referendum Commission is not the entire treaty is amazing. If you could show this to be true, the government would almost certainly fall.

Evidence? Have you ever tried to open the text of the Lisbon Treaty? This is the subtitle:

"AMENDMENTS TO THE TREATY ON EUROPEAN UNION AND TO THE TREATY
ESTABLISHING THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY"

The text offered on the site you keep quoting is ONLY the instructions on the amendments, i.e. how to modify the existing EU-treaties. Can you show me the link the government has provided for the voters to access the amended treaties so that the voters can actually perform these instructions to obtain the entire text the ratification or the rejection of which will be the consequence of the referendum in June?

With absolutely no offense intended, but It is evident from your comments that you still do not understand the issue at hand, you have not even attempted to read the Lisbon Treaty, you have absolutely no idea what it is about and - worst of all- you do not seem to understand the implications of the referendum in June.

I recommend again that you should try to read the treaty in full (through the link on the Libertas website) and get familiar with the issue or refrain from posting more comments on this.

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What does the government hide by hiding the Lisbon Treaty?

Comments (12 of 12)