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Photo Story of Dublin Riots dublin |
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news report
 Saturday February 25, 2006 19:10 by Indy Photographer - 1 of Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group
 A blow by blow account of the rioting in Dublin in photos Today the Gardai lost control of the city. For some bizzare reason, the police seemed completely unprepared for the level of violence that the FAIR / Loyalist march would provoke. This story captures the events in chronological order in pictures. The pictures can do the rest of the talking.
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Comments (179 of 179)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179A graphic Account of the Destruction on O'Connell Street
Water Spouts onto Street from Broken Hydrant
Smashed Windows of Vacant Site on Upper O Connell Street
Burning Lump of Rubble on Waste-Strewn O Connell Street
O Connell Street "Regenerated"
Torched Moped and Bikes
McDonalds Windows Smashed
Foot Locker Smashed and Looted
Schuh Shoe shop Windows Smashed
Burnt Out Wheely Bin
Ulster Bank Windows Smashed
lots of good shots
One of the most bizzare aspects of the policing disaster that happened today was the decision to allow the FAIR / Loyalist march to pass down O'Connell Street. In its current state, with the ongoing (everlasting!) building works, O'Connell Street resembles an ammunition dump for rioters. What were they thinking?
Oil Cans From Building Site
Stacks of Bricks neatly arranged for easy rioting
Paving stones conveniently positioned and easily broken into nice projectile-sized pieces
A handy Selection of Iron Bars, Bollards and Poles
Abundant Selection of Anti-Riot Police Barricades
... kind of loosing sight, isn't, it to focus on all the "handy" rioting material as a cause/problem.
The photos are very good, however why the need to block out protesters faces??? Surely we have a right to know who they are?
To loosing sight [sic] There are twice as many photos of the damage as there is of the material. There are as many photos of the FAIR march as there are of the material, so it's not true to claim that this story focuses on it. Furthermore, I'd say that anybody can see that a building site is a poor place to hold a contentious and volatile protest.
To Max The faces that are blurred are of passers by and people who were not obviously involved in the protests, I blurred their faces in case anybody made the incorrect assumption that they were involved in the protests when I did not know this to be the case.
i liked the section on the handy rioting material. v funny. macabre. true.etc. irish govt = twits? or maybe they have hidden agendas. great pics - thanksyou (ooh - also i liked the humanising pics of the nordies who came down to commemorate their dead... put in mind how people act in innocence and good faith - be they widows holding photos or kids hurling missiles. but they are all being manipulated for others' ends. methinks)
someone posted a link to this picture somewhere else on the newswire which i thought was also funny in a terrible sort of way http://www.flickr.com/photos/bluetit/104241962/
Motion 57. (from Ard Comhairle and Comhairle Ceantair Chiarraí)
"That Republican Sinn Féin develop its role as a campaigning body including ANTI WAR protests".
I assume this means all wars EXCEPT the 'war' against the 'occupying forces'
Also, could someone explain this one:
"44. That this Ard Fheis condemns any outside influences which try to disrupt or split the Movement and to ensure members are vigorous in preventing such influences. " Comhairle Átha Cliath
Actually, don't bother explaining - everyone knows what it means...just more encouragement of free speech...ha..ha!
When you sad people are gone Ireland (Protestant and Catholic and Moslem and Jew and Hindu and Orange and Green) will be truly free. Please stay at home, go on holiday, have sex, love your children, do some helpful work, stop living in 1798, 1848, 1916, 1921, 1966,....get a real life - LIVE for Ireland today. I encourage everyone to look at the photos at: www.rsf.ie - such a bunch of sad, dangerous, deluded loners.
Superb pictures - though I would quibble with your line of "Gardai thinly stretched". As a reporter on the scene today, and one who was, essentially, on that line with the Gardai, I think they did a superb job - considering the amount of notice they had. Remember, the riot police were only a standby precaution and - despite that - they got there very, very quickly and worked effectively. I know a lot of people from Indymedia still have a sore spot for them following May Day but, today, they showed their very best side and, frankly, didn't put a foot wrong.
so.... some great pics there alright...
pics showing the love ulster marchers, pics showing the nasty gardai in their nasty riot gear, pics showing bystanders, pics showing bricks BUT no pictures showing or identifying the little anti-authoritarian scum bag knackers that terrorised the public and gave unionists exactly the result they were after - explain! funny how you aren't slow to show the 'guilty party' when it's a robocop figure!
.
if you to go to the bother of downloading and uploading all those pics, please add a credit and a link to each one
It was an anonymous contributor who uploaded them - if you like we can add in credits for them or replace them with links.
not the posters own he should have credit the blogs and flickrs
The Indymedia photogropher in comment number three is not being honest I think. the only people whose faces are blurred out are the ones of RSF members.
However in the other photos with passers by and injured Gardai are in the clear.
Either you unblur all the faces or blur them all, not just the ones you might be supportive of.
I would be of the opinion had RSF done what SF did and told its membership to ignore this then it would have made a five minute incert at the end of the nine o clock news and we wouldnt have heard about it. Now what we have is CNN carrying reports that republicans are violent troublemakers.
I have to say on the riots that the Unionists walked away with the moral high ground today
I'm watching these events from abroad (the Netherlands) so my experience of them *is* totally through the media. If I am to judge the amount of media attention paid to the fact that O'Connell St. is a building site then it is my opinion that to do so it *is* to lose focus of the facts.
O'Connell St. has been a building site for as long as I can remember but none the less it was always still the right of anyone who wished to march from the Garden of Rememberence to Linster House to do so, regardless of the state of the roadway. Dublin City Council is not responsible for a mob of fascists who decide to tear the place up because the don't agree with a march.
If this is a republic then we must tollerate the opinion of others and respect their right to demand that their opinion be acknowledged, and in terms of a 32-county republic it is especially important that we respect the rights of ethnic minorities on this island to express their opinions.
The media focus - which I have experienced as someone who has only experienced Saturdays troubles through the media - on the fact that O'Connell St. was under construction at the time of the parade does miss the point, in my opinion. If you blame the City Council for reparing the streets at a time when a group is lawfully, and rightfully, allowed to march but are met with violence and thuggary you then, implicitally, excuse the actions of the violent and thuggist mob who robbed them of their republican freedoms.
By captioning your pictures with comments that implicitly reduced the responsibility of the mob that took these republican rights away from Saturday's marchers, you lost sight of the cause/problem on the day.
In simple terms, enough has been said about the state of the road. We all know that O'Connell St. is a building site. The rioters (and anti-republicans, regardless of whatever they choose to call themselves) were the cause/problem, and would have been, roadworks or not.
I agree with the above poster
Even if there were no works being done on o connell street, these scumbags would have found something to throw at police.
RTE reported that they were bringing snooker balls, fireworks and cans of petrol to the demonstration, they did not find these on the building site so to point the finger at DCC is disingenuous.
Also I came across the following video on www.boards.ie, and I cannot credit the person whose mobile phone it came from because I don't know who it was but here it is anyway.
The language being used by some contributors to describe the policing of the counter-demo is interesting. The location of the photographer also discloses that they were mainly shooting from behind the police lines. The focus is clearly on the injury to the gardai and by implication that they were innocently caught up in the action. Compare with the descriptions and photos of the policing of the May Day demonstrations or the EU protests.
I wasn't there, but i would like to see some material from those involved in the counter-demo, which clearly had substantial support and if past behaviour is anything to go by was likely to have been batoned off the street.
Please do not repost images from other sites without credit. If you see a photo on another site or on a blog, please either post a link to it or give full credit. If somebody goes to the trouble of taking photos and making them public, they at least deserve credit for it
To those who are complaining about this or that aspect of the photo story - from selective blurring of faces, to a perspective from behind police lines, to the inclusion of material showing the riot-friendly nature of the location, please remember that this is one photographer's story from my own perspective. I shot the material from where I happened to be and I took photos of what I thought was interesting. I also have no sympathy for RSF and really did just blur the faces of people who looked from the photos as if they were involved in things when I didn't know this to be the case. There are loads more stories out there and this is only one part of the truth - so stop effing moaning! In particular I don't see why one should ignore the presence of an rioting ammunition dump on the site of the protest
These people came to shove it down ourn throats that thier loved ones died , WHY DID THEY FLY THE UNION JACK?
Why did they march with a loyalist band who support the killing of innocent catholics?
these marches are political and its no wonder the peoples retaliated
One day we will have a united Ireland and these people who come to OUR capital will pay the penalty for starting trouble
All logic points to the fact that there was sufficient knowledge of the possibility of this sort of thing happening in advance, to warrant a sufficient riot safeguard to be in place, which it was not. 10 riot cops Vs 100plus rioters.
At best, it is extreme incompetence on the part of the Guards and/or the Government in underestimating the threat level, and at worst it was forseen and allowed to take place because of some agenda related to 'police reservists', 'arming the cops' or something to do with the police process. That's politics. This is the simple logic of the events on saturday.
P.S. Inner city Inequality is an explination but never, ever, an excuse! They were scumbags all right, and in my world there is such a thing as blue collar scumbags too. If you always want to see it all in terms of a 'class war' you can always have it that way.
Willie Fraser's links to the KKK are well known and documented in the north.
Willie purports to be outraged at the death of his RUC father, but has little time or sympathy for innocent unarmed civillian catholics butchered by those acting under the protection of the armed legal security services of Northern ireland.
The Love the security services of ulster march, was deliberately provokative and insulting to innocent civillians murdered during the Monaghan bombs etc.
The Love ulster march is tantamount to allowing a republican march with tricolours and full regalia etc, up the Shankill, how would the people of shankill like it, if republicans insisted on waving tricolours, and playing fiddle dee bands and marching pompously up and down the shankill road.
while this is obviously a contenious parade - the loyalists came to highlight the case for murdered victims, just like bloody sunday parades are held in ireland scotland england every year - republicans were a disgrace - equality and freedon is what it stands for but here were a bunch a thugs destroying dublin
The photos of the bricks and oilcans are very telling....
I wonder what is harder, smashing the Ulster bank window with an empty soda bottle, or with a large chunk of paver?
Dazo, I take it from your concern for equality that you would welcome Republicans waving tricolours etc marching in full regalia up and down the Shankill road, and you wouldn't think it was in bad taste and provokative.
I lived in Dublin for almost four years. Every Day I walked up to opposite the SF Offices - never once having any trouble.
It's not in the best part of the city. There was - and I think still is - cankerous poverty corroding the fabric of the City. I may be being unfair to those working hard to create greater justice and equality - I hope they can forgive that. Seeing the pictures of rioting in places I have been reminds me of the Rioting in Oldham. Rioting created by the manipulations and cynical planing of people whose agenda is not about people but about power.
The creation of low level fear and creeping terror is the tactic of every Fascist. It seems a recurrent theme throughout the world. Now it has struck Dublin - attributing blame to ex-soldiers or black bloc is neither here nor there. The bottom line is that the rioting was propelled by fear and terror. The comments on the demonstration do not criticise people whose entire ideology stems from fear and power. I do mean both sides of the Border. I do mean both Loyalist and Republican. I mean every person who benefits from this horrible impostion on a wonderful city.
People's lives and happiness are being sacrificed for power through terror through the world. Manipulating the poor into rioting is a cynical technique of every dictator. It is always easier to make more Poor People. Poverty, the lack of imagination and the promotion of fear of strangers is making the world smaller.
I would possibly think twice about a return to Dublin. This is my loss. It might be a loss to the City itself - I don't know that I am that important in the grand scheme of things. What I do know is that "perpetrators" for the events will be found and paraded. And - like in Oldham - the deeper problems will never be examined.
Problems like Racism, Fascism and the failure of Governments, the horrifying drift in Authoritarianism that is being pushed upon anybody and everybody. I began to write because I was a Brit whol lived happily in Dublin and was incredibly saddened that this could happen. The people at the SF offices were always civil and - occassionally - kind.
Despite me being such an obvious Brit. Despite the fact I was a "Foreigner stealing an Irish Job". Now I am angry that people from My country travel to your country to exercise their fantasies of Blood and Honour. (I know Republicans must disagree with that expression - "My Country" - but the North is British until such time...).
I know I am unaware of the underlying causes and I am being sentimental about a place I have lived. But I think that Dubliners - and Ireland - have a right to be spared the idiocies and thuggeries of British Fascism. For that I feel responsible. It's no longer sufficient for Republicans to demand the North. They must demand the North to be returned to a state of Civilisation first.
Apologies for the length, sentimentality and obvious lack of newsworthness.
(If anybody cares to republish this for any reason commercial reason, please contribute to some appropriate refugee charity. It's the decent thing to do).
Hey people,
it is just crazy what was going on in dublin ,how can you talk about great pics?the pics are shocking and just let me ask myself if those people who were rioting have a brain,nothing else. what is the fun about injuring each other? im also angry on these orange order people(why they have to march in dublin ?) but people could also express their anger in a peaceful way! why people need to become violant?Violance is never right, no matter for what good or bad reason,its wrong in general!
Graeme Murphy
The bands carried the Union Jack because they are Unionist bands. They went to Dublin as Unionists so it is only natural that they should display the Union flag.
Can you please give some evidence to support your claim that any of the bands support the killing of innocent Catholics, if you cannot provide it please retract your ridiculous claim.
Of course this march was political. It was intended to draw to the attention of the Irish government and the Irish people the fact that there are hundreds of victims of the IRA who are being ignored by BOTH governments in their calls for justice.
jah bless my rudegirl
Again, where is your evidence to back up your claims about Willie Frazer and the KKK, if it's so well documented you wont have any trouble finding it on the internet. If you can't support your statements with evidence don't bother posting them.
What amazes me is that the brave camera men of indy media were unable to identify any of the mindless thugs who were involved in the riot yesterday.
It's not so long ago (and god only knows that you are still whinging about) where they stood aloft and championed the cause of a few mindless thugs that attempted to cause a riot on mayday.
If I remember it was your photographers that raced forward claiming to have photographic evidence of Garda brutality, ( No blurred faces here )but where were you yesterday, surely you have images of the culprits from yesterday, if so why are they not on the web for all to see and for them to be identified and prosecuted.
There were several Gardai/innocent members of the public injured yesterday but no public outcry yet when a few yobs from Dalkey get hit with a baton it a morale atrocity. You know it's rubbish like this thats bringing me to the conclusion that this site and a large percentage of the people associated with it are full of shit
These are well documented, Fraziers US contact has addressed Aryan Nations rallies and liased with the KKK: Do your own research -This was reported in the media in January -its not untrue becase of your ignorance.
Will -it amazes me that you really expect Indymedia to be a vehicle so that the good people involved yesterday be identified as touts for rat bastards like you .
I have just published an a political analysis of the riots to accompany this photo story. See the link below.
oh and to the commentator who calls himself 'will' - you sound like somebody who is so intelligent that indymedia wouldn't know what to do without your political analysis - please don't leave us!!!
OK, since you don't want to support your arguement about Willie Frazer and the KKK yourself I'll check google ....
Wow, a whole 30 results that mention Willie Frazer and the KKK on the same page (and most of them are completly irrelevent). The only link that comes up is that Frazer once met an American who once met a KKK leader. If that is the basis of your arguement about the KKK "link" then your claim is simply laughable.
This Love Ulster march never should have been approved by the Parades Commission. These people have no business marching in Ireland. They are advocates for British rule, so why on earth should the RoI feel it necessary to condone treason as if it were just another political point of view? Pluralism and free speech stops where treason begins. Apparently, the government and its supporters don't know this.
The people who cared enough to show up and prevent these British from marching are not thugs or criminals. The pointless vandalism and theft was deplorable but the use of the minimum physical force to stop the march was justified
Cheers to the boys who took a stand. You are patriots in a country which doesn't know its ass from its elbow. Don't let the media vilification get you down.
He said he had no problem with Billy Wright who was responsible for the deaths of dozens of innocent catholics. Just another sectarian unionist biggot.
The so called FAIR group have previously displayed photo's of Robert McConnell who planted bombs in Dublin killing nearly 30 people. Walking past the bomb site carrying a photo of the bomber is just trying to cause upset people. Sounds like they support terrorism while pretending to be a victim support group..
Most people saw them for the ignorant bigots they are and just ignored them but unfortunately you'll always get the scumbag element looking for trouble.
"To Max The faces that are blurred are of passers by and people who were not obviously involved in the protests"
the first four photos clearly show FAIR members and the faces of members of the band.
The fifth photo is of protestors but their faces have been blanked out.
Why?
Surely the action taken by RSF on Saturday is utterly self -defeating.
You can't have a United Ireland if it's people are not united.
There are 1 million Irish men and women living in the north who are today
not welcome in Dublin.
RSF have surely put the chances of uniting this country back for another generation.
For every Bloody Sunday there was a Teeban.
For every innocent catholic death an innocent protestant death.
Bury the past with our dead and build for the future of Ireland.
A number of points that I would like to make:
1. It's all good and well making points regarding the ill-organisation march with the aid of retrospective hindsight, but all of the concerns should have been voiced last week, before the riots. The national airwaves were bizarrely silent.
2. I do not think that the route chosen was appropriate. Anybody familiar with the Parnell St. area knows only too well that there are a number of dissident public houses on that street. Furthermore there is a large body of disinfranchised youths in the environs of Summerhill.
3. The riots were not sectarian. They were opportunistic, and by that I do not mean that they were not orchestrated. Rather it was an opportunity for chaos- similar to the anti-globalisation troubles of a number of summers ago. Note that Charlie Bird was beaten badly, and David Norris was subjected to an anti-gay tirade. These rioters were gurriers and thugs pure and simple.
4. The blame rests not with the gardai, who acted beyond reproach. The blame rests not with the organisers. The rioters did use the large amount of construction material lying about the street- but maybe this was a Godsend, as they may have turned their attention to the passers-by and to the shops more readily. The blame may rest with society at large for being content to allow near ghettoes flourish so close to the city centre of our beautiful capital city.
The only people who couldn't have seen this coming are people who live in the comfy world of middle class Dublin. Anybody from a working class part of the city could have told you that the Orangemen were heading for a hiding. Sinn Fein gets more votes from working class areas for a reason.
Best counter-demo I've ever seen in Dublin anyway. Why should we allow these rightwing bigots to parade the streets abusing republicans as 'terrrorists'? Fuck them.
Anyone who supports Sinn Fein/IRA I have no time for...they support terrorism, criminality...no wonder Bertie Adhern has said he'd never want to share power with them in Ireland!!!
I'm from the Shankill Road...I'd welcome any Catholic march up there...tri-colours and all...provided no Sinn Fein voting person was in the procession!!!
Have no time for loyalist paramilitary parties either!!!
Anybody should be able to walk anywhere in Ireland North or South unless they support organisations that kill, maim and terrorise their own and other communities!!!
I
First of all, I just want to say that I've lived in Dublin all my life and am a republican. If anyone were to say anything derogatory about my country, I would feel strongly about that and would put them right.
I didnt have a problem with the Unionists coming down as they were remembering the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and both prodestand and catholic were killed in those. I would have had a problem and would have felt very angry and the orange order members worn their orange sashes but I had read they would not be wearing them so I felt ok about the march.
The reason I was in town was because there was meant to be a workshop relating to a course I was doing at 2.00 and that was up on Camden Street.
I got into town about 12.15 and I had a few thing to get around Henry Street so I rambled around. It was about 1.20 when I decided to head up towards Grafton and out to Camden Street. Being near the end of Henry Street, I was going to cut out onto O'Connell Street and cross over the bridge that way but I decided to cut out through Liffey Street - a decision I was glad I made as riots were already happening which I learnt of that night.
I headed up Grafton Street and rambled around a few shops and then headed to Camden Street and that was about 1.40 as I looked at my watch to check the time. Anyway, the class was not on so I headed back to Grafton Street, went into the shopping centre and went into one or two shops.
I came out of a shop only to see about 12 riot police running up Grafton Street towards the green. I hadnt a clue what was going on but I was heading home anyway. My bus stop is on Westmoreland Street, the end that is close to O'Connell Bridge.
I started to walk down Grafton Street and all of a sudden I looked around and realised that shops had the barriers down and people were stuck inside. I nearly asked someone what was going on because I felt confused as whatever had happened, I had missed being in a shop.
I head down around College green and I noticed the Spar Shop window was smashed and looked like something quite big had been thrown at the window. As I got nearer to O'Connell Street area, I started to hear alot of police sirens. I started to feel a bit edgy and afraid because I didnt know what was going on or what I was going to be faced with but knew something must have happened with the march.
I headed down Westmoreland Street and again noticed all the shops along there on both sides had the barriers down. Just as I reached My bus stop (its opposite the chemist and near the Londis on the corner) a police van and car came screaming down from the top of Westmoreland Street and pulled in, in front of traffic waiting at the lights to block them from moving.
I just missed a bus so I walked to Londis to buy a drink but noticed the doors were locked so I walked back to the bus stop. I then saw people who had been waiting to cross over from O'Connell Bridge starting to run towards where I was and then saw more people on the bridge running also. I then looked up towards the bridge and that was when my heart stopped. What looked like about 100/200 IRA thugs on the bridge and getting closer and closer to where I was. I started to be scared at this point.
A few of these thugs then ran by me and one of them, the side of his face was all bloody. At any time, something could have been thrown at me so at this point, I decided to get out of there. As I started to walk, I heard a security guard from the chemist tell someone they had to walk out of the centre to get a bus. They had lifted the barrier a bit to see if it was safe for people to leave the shop.
I turned onto Aston Quay and Dublin Corporation had cordoned off part of a footpath and there was the yellow plastic barriers around it. Inside were 2 thugs stamping down on the barriers, trying to get at them.
My legs were like jelly at this stage and somehow I kept walking. I stopped a bus driver who was outside a coffee shop to ask him about buses and was told they were going from Merchants Quay.
I headed towards there and came across a bunch of Welsh lads heading down towards the trouble so I went over and warned them and continued on.
Luckily, all my buses were there. I was so thankful to get home because my biggest fear was that I wasnt going to get out of there.
I saw the news later that evening and then realised that with seconds to spare, that I had missed getting caught up in it. Both times really, just by decisions I made.
"I didnt have a problem with the Unionists coming down as they were remembering the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and both prodestand and catholic were killed in those."
they were not. they were commemorating one of the uvf men who carried out the bombing. they were also commemorating ruc killed by republicans. they were not remembering anyone killed by loyalists.
frazier the leader of FAIR doesent believe that the UVF or UDA should have been in prison in the first place. FAIR is a group that has links with the UVF, Combat 18 and the BNP.
"What looked like about 100/200 IRA thugs on the bridge "
That's right, you've been a republican all your life but that surely must have been a slip of the fingers on the keyboard. Don't hear many republicans saying IRA thugs.
I was in exactly the same area during the riot and dunno what you're on about! The rioters and shoppers happily mingled. People only panicked when the guards came a running with their batons. I thought the whole riot was conducted in a pretty good spirit actually.
And jellyman, I don't believe you're a republican unless you mean of the PD variety.
I arrived at tyhe scene at the centre of o'connell street and joined the crowd behind barriers, many of them hurling rocks, and bottles obtained from bottle bins from the lans. there was that burning wheely bin at the front which made it feel like a real riot. I heard that the police had started moving everbody in the counter march down and then started using force and thats why the violence started. The violence was directed at the police. But I do have to say that in most cases the poeple doing the damage where from a lower class of society of dublin and like said before is completely differant the the middle class of dublin who live in their surburban bubble and are too content with their lavish lifestyle to be concerned aboiut the history in a way they could possibly relate to it in a physical way. Because these people live this way they would never use an armed struggle for anything. They have too much to lose.
But for other people they want to stick with their paarties like sinn fein. The thing that I felt actually did represent the rioters was the flag saying remember the monahan/dublin bomings. I do realise the marchers had the 'right' to march peacefully down our main street. And also that we as a nation should have accepted it as a symbol that if the RoI can accept them as a minority and would boost the chances of them to accept making this a 32 county nation.
BUT, The march was always not going to work. They were actually just rubbing our faces in it.
The acceptance of that march would have been a defeat in the reason of promoting their cause to us. They in my veiw should,'t have a cause in the firt place, as history will tell you, the irish nation was taken by force by the english and plantations of english people populated the region to gain a connection with the crown. We were breeded out.
Fast forward to now. The troubles of the last 30 years up the north and the decendent from the people sent to breed us out of our country want to come down and have their union jacks fly high down our main street to look for sympathy and reconition of the people killed by the IRA.
I do not agree with alot of the crimes the IRA have committed over the last 30 years.
But I would not sympatise with the terrorist groups/ familes connected with terrorists coming down to dublin to look for this 'reconition'.
Firstly it was an insult for it to be happening.
I feel sympathy for the police for having to bear the brunt of our politicians who are fairly socially out of touch will the "old school " approch of using force to get what you want. Because we as a human race have only ever used it to even right a wrong.
The police were targeted so bad because they had to protect and happened to provoke a already volitle crowd.
But they were not all angels. One scene I wittnessed was 7 police with batons hiting a protested until he fell, and then repeatedely kicked him. I did not see this protester attempt to use violence and what made this scence particuraly bad was the the protester was isolated. Its not like there were any other protesters withen 20 ft.
I also heard a high ranking officer instructing a officer to "open up his head" if a man who had been signing near the officers. In fairness the did a decent job of dispersing the crowd.
Look I side with the protesters and find it nothing more than amusing and predictable. You have to realise that peace can slip anywhere at any time and realise that there constantly places of conflct at any given moment.
I was Dublin city centre like many others shopping on saturday. I was utterly disgusted by the actions of the republican protestors both those who rioted and the whose sneakily passed comments from behind the barriers at the police. I walked from Connolly station to Talbot street at about 1.30 where I was met by a police baracade. The queue was about 3 deep so I made my way to the front and asked the policeman (who was covered in orange paint from the knee down) what was going on. He informed me that republicans were attacking the police. Anyway I went back and made my way to Jervis street via Parnell street. The was a horrible atmosphere throughout the city centre between scumbag republicans running through the streets and local filth robbing the shops in their own city.
I was delighted that the loyalists got out of Dublin safely, they have as much right as anyone to march through the city. The other week hard-line muslims marched through the city telling us that we cannot publish a picture of Muhammed in our papers, which is against the definition of free speech but no one seemed to question this. I am irish by birth, as are all of my family, my grandad fought in the rising but I hold nothing but utter hate for republicanism and (SF/IRA). It has no place in modern Ireland.
Personally I am happy in the knowledge that ireland will never be united, i for one would never want the 6 counties, NI is an economic hell-hole that would strangle any life out of the celtic tiger.
One more thing any republican who stupidly thinks you achieved anything on saturday is sorely wrong. You have turned every decent minded person from the south against you and this will make the hardcore loyalists even more determined to march here.
IMAGINE IF THIS WAS WHAT HAPPENED ON SAT:
The loyalist marched from Parnell sq to Kildare street, flanked by people most of who only saw the parade whilst passing on their days shopping. They held their rally outside the Dail and the meeting between their reps and the TDs took place. They then went home. What impression would that have given them of people here?
They can have a field-day about what happened last saturday and they have ever right to.
"Bizzarely Shopping Continues Through the Riots"
Pure stupidity is not the norm down here. Apart from the opertunistic scum bag getting carried away with the situation. Does any one actualy care about a bunch of sad bastards mozzieing down a road? I doubt it. Or at least the vast majority are more likely to just give out about it or laugh.
This seems to be the only country in this area that is not on high alert. (Not enough pitch forks to go around any how ;) If some one wanted to get the irish hiped up then this would be an example of there efforts.
i think both sides of the arguement have made very valid points. sometimes with things like this it's hard to know who's right and wrong. however i think personally that the march should never have been let go ahead. while i agree that every one should have the right to march peacefully it was well known that this was no peaceful march. it was a kick to the face for republicans. however what i fail to understand is that the people who started the riots completely destroyed THEIR OWN city. this FAIR group got to go back to the north with smug smiles on their faces while our city was left in bits. it was dublin people and dublin gaurds who were injured these rioters did nothing except to incite anger in the citizens of dublin city. i think there was wrong doing on both sides and it's both governments faults for turning a blind eye and failing to see the hurt and anger this march wuold cause
The riots were predictable and justified
by Jimmy Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:56
"The only people who couldn't have seen this coming are people who live in the comfy world of middle class Dublin. Anybody from a working class part of the city could have told you that the Orangemen were heading for a hiding. Sinn Fein gets more votes from working class areas for a reason.
Best counter-demo I've ever seen in Dublin anyway. Why should we allow these rightwing bigots to parade the streets abusing republicans as 'terrrorists'? Fuck them."
You call people burning cars, randomly looting and destroying property a counter demonstration? (abuse removed -ed) if you belive that was anything other than an excuse from scumbag knackers to smash some stuff up and have a go at the police. It had absolutely nothing to do with remembering victims of the troubles or anything of the sort. Granted the police were woefully underprepared-a fact i got straight from a police women who was on O'Connell Street- and the march should have never been allowed to go ahead in the first place. However the mindless stupidity from a bunch of idiots who probably know fuck all about the troubles was not the answer and the pictures from nassau street prove it. Jimmy you've proven yourself to be a wannabe working class hero/wannabe hardman and its pathetic
Why should their faces be shown? So yis can all rat on them to the Free State gards? Who do yis think yis r? I'l tell ya what's really interesting. That there wasn't one single pic in a paper or on the news or on the net of the gards as they battered an elderly man over the head with their batons as he tried to cover himself! That they taunted the protestors and egged them on! No u won't see anything about this. You can all say what you like about those thugs who went on the rampage in Nassau Street burning cars and looting etc but the riots that took place on O'Connell Street were 100% justified and fair play to all who took part!
Tiocfaidh Ar La
I think there was the odd wee point raised above about persons in the loylist procession carrying union flags...in just over two weeks from now there will be a lot of persons in Belfast city centre carrying tri-colours to celebrate St. Patricks day...the tri-colour is of course the flag of a foreign country to people in Northern Ireland...doesn't bother me though as a protestant...I won't be out throwing bricks, looting and setting fires to cars over the issue!!! Only bothers those who have nothing better to be doing with their lives than be out spoiling the fun and rights of others!!!!
i have just been reading all of the posted comments with interest. now, i'm not normally one to get into political discussions but i do have a few things to say about all of this.
there are plenty of republicans in this country who think that the IRA are scumbags. i believe in my country and who i am as an irish person, but i don't think that there is any need to solve anything with violence. the people who organised this march should have known what would happen, there are plenty of small minded petty people out there who will use something like this as an excuse to cause trouble. i really don't agree that they were to march in their full regalia with their orange music blaring because that is an insult to the people of the republic. hovever, they do have a right to demonstrate against wrongs that have been committed. everyone knows that by now it goes well past religion and that should be kept out of it. and yes, that is like us going up there with our tricolour and harping on about wrongs committed in the past when the fact of the matter is that that's where they are - in the past. it is good to remember, but not to dwell.
The Tri-colour is a foreign flag in the north?? Typical. The "people of the north" that see the tri-colour as foreign only do so because they invaded the country. That's the whole problem to begin with.
Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King and many others besides revoked violence for very clear reasons : a) it always plays into the hands of those who seek to control, b) the morality of pacifism is untouchable and c) passive resistance unites rather than divides the people. A people united in peaceful resistance can influence good government.
Change will never be positive, when it is attempted through violence. Iraq, Afghanistan are good current examples. And to all violent 'patriots' you must realise, if you look deeply into the issue, that 1916 did not work, It actually robbed the people of Ireland of their long-term prospects of peace, and genuine governance as it allowed the UK to divide Ireland, it allowed an American, Eamon De Valera, a n upper class proxy of the Rockefellers and the Carnegies of that time to ensure that the power essentially remained in the hands of the rich, and furthermore it caused a civil war which was bloody and unneccesary. It played into the hands of the enemies of the people.
You can be sure now, that new laws will be forthcoming that constrict our freedoms as a result of these hours of violence.
And you can be sure that more American troops will be using Shannon, more tortured people will be transported via Shannon, on 'rendition' flights and that as the coming war against Iran is launched that irelands 'neutrality' will be further undermined, her reputation amognst nations sullied and tarnished.
You ought to be protesting at the Irish governments' involvement in the Iraq War, at their support for Shell ( a foreign company whose interest is in shareholder profit and fatcat salaries) above the rights of people who live on this land, this Emerald Isle.
"The people of the North"...I take it you mean the people of Northern Ireland??? As for the national flag of the north...it's the Red Hand of Ulster...from doing geography in school you'll find the south is outside of the UK, hence it's foreign!!!...hence their flag is foreign!!!
I have no problem with people waving the tri-colour up here in Northern Ireland...or playing Irish songs...I'm actually going to Mayo to head out for St. Patrick's to take in a bit of Irish music and the green, white and goldness of the occasion!!!
Rioting was atrocious...and should be condemned by all quarters!!!
can someone tell me why in fucks name these idiots decided to destroy the irish republic which they are supposedly rioting to protect can solve any thing in all the rioting the a single northern irish person get hurt? why? burn out some poor guys car for all you know he may wish his car could be regestered in ireland in my opinion any one involved werent repersenting ireland they were repersenting everything thats wrong with our country. ny final question is of all you rioters how many actually know anything about our countrys indepence other than we got it ?
The biggest problem in this country and pretty much everywhere there is trouble in this world is that no one will let go of what happened in the past.
Speaking from experience, if you hold onto everything bad that has ever happened you can NEVER have a happy life. When in the last days of your life you will not wish you threw more bricks, hit people or shouted to get your own way - you will wish that you had forgiven things, loved more and let go of hatred for others. Fact.
Forget 1945, 1972, 1998 and move onwards. When something happens, engage in dialogue whenever possible and sort things. If you can't then you must move on and let things go. Arguing the same point over and over, not forgiving mistakes and holding onto things that never even happened to you personally, will NOT change a dam thing. Hate will only ruin your life and the lives of ALL those around you and achieves nothing.
If they wished to show their objections to the March (which please understand, everyone is entitled to do but in a peaceful way) it would have been far more impressive for them to line the route, face their backs to the marchers, ignoring them and even singing or chanting over the music of the Orange bands. It would have had a HUGE impact and done wonders to show the ability of the Republican movement to put the past behind them and deal with the here and now.
Just a little thing to think about for all of us - If someone or a group of people apologize for a mistake or even an intentional act, take it on board for your own benefit. Even if you cannot forgive them at least you can move on and live the rest of your life with some closure.
The scumbags in the Dail are responsible for this riot. They allowed the Orange March! The riot was 100% to be expected.
The scumbags in the Dail and Garda knew it would gime them ammo to beat SF/RSF around the head with and maybe introduce new Garda powers.
The Scumbags in the Dail and Gardai also set the route -- through a building site. The Scumbags in the Chamber of Commerce is also responsible for not tackling the Scumbags in the Dails' decision to let the march go through.
It was a chance to show off the Gardai's new riot gear. Robo-Eugenes.
Will the relatives of the people who died in Dublin/Monaghan/Dundalk at the hands of brit/loyalist monsters arrange a march down the Shankhill?
"...in just over two weeks from now there will be a lot of persons in Belfast city centre carrying tri-colours to celebrate St. Patricks day..."
You may find this hard to believe, but Belfast City Council has banned the carrying of the Tricolour at this year's (first) St.Patrick's Day Parade. Not so inclusive after all, huh?
Can people say whether they genuinely believe that a Pro-republican march, complete with flute-bands, tricolours, and banners commemorating dead IRA volunteers, would be allowed to pass through the centre of Belfast?
I find it hard to believe that it ever would, but maybe I'm wrong.
I'm in my midtwenties living in London, I was born in Dublin and Lived there for 23 years, I had to leave as my choosen field of work is not availible to me in Dublin.
There are many people voiceing their views on this thread and I wish to ad my few cents.
I believe the Irish Goverment were correct to allow the march, however they may have been a little short sighted to the extent of what was most probably going to happen.
In reference to one of the posts above mentioning going to Maya for St Patick day celebrations and the Green white and Goldiness. The Colours of the Flag of the Republic of Ireland are
Green, White and Orange.
A gift from the French, hence the tricolour, Green for the Republicans, Orange for the unionists and White standing for Peace between both communities.
In recent times Ireland has become more than just 2 communities, it is a true multicultural nation. While I am proud of my heritage, proud to be from the Republic, I was ashamed of the display on OConnell street on Saturday. I believe that there were some on the side of the Marchers that hoped to provoke such a display, but those that commited the distruction and violence are just Loats! Young (insert derogatory term here ) that were out for a fight no matter the subject. Answer me why the Gards were attacked? They are not British. Garda Siochana meaning Keepers of the Peace and thats just what they attempted to do. These were people with no idea or care for the social, political or finacial fall out of their actions!
Firstly, I'd like to make clear, I condemn this violence like any normal person should. The riots were completely stupid, carried out by a gang of scumbags who wrecked their own city. But an Orangeman parade through Dublin is a bit insensitive ... but again does not justify violence. Counterprotest if you want ....
However, your comments are ignorant and provocative, and one of the major problems for people trying to live peacefully and just get over the past. You refer to the Unionist flag in your first comment but seem to have changed over to provincial flags, it's hard to tell since you don't seem to know what you are talking about (although you seem to be trying to give me a geography lesson). To educate yourself about the difference between a Unionist and Ulster flag, I've pasted a link for you below (note the words in the text "not to be confused with the Flag of Ulster"). Not all "people of the north" are unionists. The Unionist flag is the foreign flag, a result of the English occupation of Ireland. Even if are talking about the four provinces now, I'm talking about THE national flag, the Tricolour (consult with the UN if you still can't follow). Ireland was once one nation, until it was invaded and brutally occupied for centuries, killing millions. I believe in "the past is the past" to some extent, the people right here right now were not the perpetrators so we should just get on with things. HOWEVER, people like you continue the problem becuase it's extremely offensive to hear some ignorant fuckwit say he is not bothered by a Tricolour being flown in the north and considers the rest of the country as foreign. You are entititled to your beliefs, but if you feel like you have the right to parade through Dublin reminding people who are just getting on with their lives that their country was once, and continues to be, occupied and if you consider the rest of Ireland foreign, then fuck off back to your beloved England to whom you are clearly allied.
Consider this, if someone killed your family, then got off scott-free, even with the best of forgiveness, would you like them parading up and down outside your house to remind you?
FORGIVE AND FORGET AND JUST LIVE IN PEACE .... but it's hard to not get a bit annoyed (verbally) when uneducated fuckwits continue to push reminders in your face.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Northern_Ireland
I'm a yank and I can see the utter stupidity of these "Brits" trying to parade through Dublin. From the looks of it, their group was all senior citizens and their numbers couldn't have exceeded 40 members- pretty week showing if you ask me. That group really had no business being in Dublin and it appears that a parade such as this would just be organized to stir up trouble in the first place... Being an outsider the way I look at the whole situation is this- British colonialism has been forced out of every nation it once occupied, i.e. India, Hong Kong, etc. So why the hell do they still have a presence in Northern Ireland????? I say orange northerners belong in Britian- not in Ireland. They can do all the parading they want in London.
The riots on Saturday were a disgrace and no doubt started by a few mindless thugs who obviously dont care about their city or the impression they give .
P.S. it would suit Gav and chuckie sorry I mean Tiocfaidh head to go back to school, since when is yis and gards part of our language so boys of to the nearest V.E.C and learn a bit of grammer for yourselves or should that be of wit yis
I came from a working class area and thank God didnt have to listen to any shite that seems to dribble from yor mouth or should that be gob
The Red Hand of Ulster = Ulster, 9 counties.
It does not mean the 6 counties of "northern Ireland only"
I have no problem with Northern people or southern people, from both sides,
and i agree with you that violence is not the answer + should be cut out of society.
But I dont accept saying that the tricolor is foreign in any part of this island.
If you fail to recognise the Natives in Northern Ireland, then you fail to recognise the problem. Its like many other nations split by colonisation + plantation..
(actually, if the union Jack is designed from elements of the Irish,scottish,welsh + english flag, should it not be modified as Ireland is no longer a part of the United Kingdom.) --- i just wanted to ask this question, i dont mean anything by it.
so here's my parting words:
1. lets stop fighting
2. attacking Dublin on saturday, did not help Ireland.
3. I dont think the march should have happened.
(perhaps without a band, without the union jack + without Orange attire,
if people want to remember the dead in Dublin, please do, but wear black suits or something as a sign of respect to the dead + to the neighbourhood)
I think what Ireland needs (north + south) is a change in attitude,
listen to different people, open your mind to the causes of all this shit + think of how best to solve it, you will find shaking hands a start.
to an Ireland of catholic + protestant friendship
have a good day everyone.
:o)
In my efforts to understand "The Troubles" in Ireland, I keep reading of situations in Ireland that are comparable to my country, America, and home state of Florida.
The Dublin riot yesterday appears to have deep roots, whether it be applicable to the British government or to the Irish Republic. If I were the Brits, I'd get the hell out of Ireland as fast as I could. If I were the Irish, I would be worried to death that even a free and independent Ireland is heading for serious trouble in the future and will not be able to blame it all on the Brits.
While the Unionists have angered the young republican rioters (and I hope I am using these terms correctly), the Indymedia author demonstrates greater understanding and insight of a disastrous social condition that has been dormant and now given a chance to raise its ugly head.
We, in America, have the same cancerous conditions. Although "more independent" than Ireland, we too have half our adult population who do not vote in elections, we have a significant and growing lower class, especially affecting our minority populations, and we have corporations and the wealthy who are controling our country, our lives and our government's policies, whether it be for war or for jobs and salaries. And we have a shrinking middle class who is losing its independence, freedoms, economic security,and yes, the same ingredient of these Irish rioters, hope and dignity.
What does not bode well for Ireland's future, equally sends a message to us here in America, that the fires of discontent left smoldering, as in Dublin, will eventually emerge in ways we do not want nor will we be able to control.
"Outside View by ARGYLE747 Mon Feb 27, 2006 17:20
I'm a yank and I can see the utter stupidity of these "Brits" trying to parade through Dublin. From the looks of it, their group was all senior citizens and their numbers couldn't have exceeded 40 members- pretty week showing if you ask me. That group really had no business being in Dublin and it appears that a parade such as this would just be organized to stir up trouble in the first place... Being an outsider the way I look at the whole situation is this- British colonialism has been forced out of every nation it once occupied, i.e. India, Hong Kong, etc. So why the hell do they still have a presence in Northern Ireland????? I say orange northerners belong in Britian- not in Ireland. They can do all the parading they want in London"
I was wondering how long it would take a Septic (yank) to get involved, its just great that the people who financed 30 years of terrorism and who are the least educated about the north will want to stick their privledged noses in!
Waht was the point in this march.It was really stupid because all this crowd is doing is waving the Protestant banners all over Dublin after all the crimes that were committed up in the North.Its like having a Sinn Fein march through London- its not going to happen.I mean,these guy tried to have a march down in Cork on Paddy's Day last year.The whole day would have been a huge riot even ten times bigger than the one in Dublin.In my opinion,i think they dont have respect for anybody except for themselves.
It is a pleasure to see so many young men and women present to contiune the fight for recignition of evil british rule in this island nation.
I attended this riot and didnt not see any mention of Dublin people killed or any apologies on behalf of U.D.A U.V.F or R.U.C paramilitry violence. We the people of Ireland are not scum because our army is a false joke. The british army needs to be fought or else it wouldnt be an army. So if our own representatise cannot legaly defend well its time to call on the C.I.R.A to protect and destroy the brits and all they represent.
"untill all small nations are free"
Rember england rained with their long range guns now we must contiune to block with a small arms fund
Its like having a Sinn Fein march through London- its not going to happen.
Hi Pat
From the papers during the week, it had said they were commemorating the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. I guess the papers got it wrong again!
It wasnt a slip of the finger.
Just to inform you there are two types of Republicans. The normal, decent people who have always lived in the south and condone any type of violence and then theres the extremist Republicans who resort to violence and rioting and have links to Sinn Fein and the IRA who defile the flag by their actions and give decent Republicans a bad name because all they see are the type of Republicans that are linked to the IRA, who are violent and start riots.
I condone violence of any sort. I am not a violent person neither are any of my family and not one of us will vote for Sinn Fein because of what they stand for. I dont believe a word that comes out of Gerry Adams mouth. I cant stand the man and Sinn Fein shouldnt be allowed to have a party down here.
My Great Uncle took part in the 1916 rising and was part of the IRA back then. The Good IRA that tried to get rid of English rule and I know he would turn in his grave if he knew what the IRA after that turned into and what they have done.
I still stand by what I say and they are still IRA thugs that caused havoc in the city on Saturday. Thats the only name I can think of for them. How dare they wreck our city.
I know exactly what I'm on about because not only did I see it but also the woman at the bus stop with me.
What I saw was shoppers on the bridge running away and towards Westmoreland Street and one of them actually stopped and told us that rioters were on the bridge. They were not mingling with the rioters, they were getting away from them. Then some of the rioters went by me laughing and at any stage, they could have thrown something at me so I decided to start walking and get away from the centre before I got hurt.
I dont know what was happening on O'Connell Street because I wasnt near there so perhaps shoppers were mingling with rioters there, I just dont know. All I know is what I have seen on the news reports regarding the riot on O'Connell Street and what I witnessed myself on O'Connell Bridge.
I have one question?
What did the irish government think would happen alowing a march of this kind to go ahead in dublin?
there was far to little garda present for an event of this magnatude and they must have anticipated a backlash
of sorts from an (ORANGE MARCH IN DUBLIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
there is somebody to blame.
but i dont think it´s the roitor´s.
i think it´s the stupid people who allowed this sort of march to go ahead in Ireland´s Capital
nowing that there is a vast amount of people who not welcome a visit of this sort.
Just for the record, if anyone in belfast does object to tri-colours its due to 1 of these reasons;
1) the tri-colour represents the catholics of ireland(green), the prodestants of ireland(orange) and peace between them (white) so if u object to a tri-colour, surley this means you object to peace between the two religions?
and 2) your just a typical iggnorant loyalist who knows more about shaggin yer sister than ye do about politics.
It is not those who inflict the most, but those who suffer the most who shall conquer-Terance MacSwinney
So the garda had no expectations as to the march on Saturday in town, And their so-called intelligence division had no knowledge as to what was going to happen... Well congratulations Minister for justice, Garda, Berti and whoever else, It really just proves what a mindless bunch of complete morons you are , And just who is running this island, Cause a deaf dumb and blind 1 year old monkey could easily see what was going to happen when that march was even suggested for our streets... In the words of Bono and U2 "where the streets have no name", Well they do now, And its not pretty......................................
Brian Patrick Moore made a very good point above. The violence on Saturday had nothing to do with issues of sovereignty or nationality, and a lot to do with violence.
And where does violence start? In the school-room, when small children are taken from their families, co-erced into conformity. Resist the idea as much as you want, but the truth is that complusory schooling is about lie-ing to children about who they are, force feeding them propaganda, and dumbing them all down, by grading and exams, into the various classes of people that the modern industrialist state requires for it's own ends. The school is not for the children.. And the anger of the most deprived people is justified, when you see how the resources that rightfully belong to all are shared out.... The corruption is sickening!
Go to http://www.johntaylorgatto.com for a real history of complusory schooling, the people behind it, their agenda and the effects it has on children. You will weep when you realise what has been done. And when you finish weeping, get up and get even. Get up and work together for a better future for all our children.
“Anyone who supports Sinn Fein/IRA I have no time for...they support terrorism, criminality...no wonder Bertie Adhern has said he'd never want to share power with them in Ireland!!!”
Terrorism is a poor man’s war: war is a rich man’s terror. Governments everywhere are no strangers to terrorism and criminality one way or another. Take, for example, the ilegal invasion of Iraq by warr criminals Blair and Bush, and their willing aide de campe, Bertie Ahern and friends.
Also, given the criminality in Fianna Fáil while he was Finance Minister, Bertie is in no position of moral authority in this regard.
Using Ahern’s words against the south misses two main points: a), ust over 25% of the 26 counties have voted for this man’s party: b). Given that Sinn Féin are Fianna Fáil’s biggest electoral threat (e.g., growing from 1-12% of vote in Dublin in 10 years); he would say that, wouldn’t he.
Such a question is best put to Bertie himself who will perform spectacular mental gynastics trying to justify himself to all.
“Anybody should be able to walk anywhere in Ireland North or South unless they support organisations that kill, maim and terrorise their own and other communities!!!”
Check out Susan McKay’s Irish Times piece, revived in this indymedia.ie article. Willie Fraizer does “support organisations that kill, maim and terrorise their own and other communities!!!”
The words "red flag" and "crazed bull" come to mind.... who is stupider, the idiot bullfighter waving the red flag (regardless of his reasons) or the bull who (because of the neglect of the people in charge) has no purpose left in his life but to attack, be crazy and create destruction.
I think its interesting that in poorer areas of Dublin people are voting for SF. Why? SF couldn't care less about poverty and inequality. They are devoted to a united Ireland not a united people.
A lot of people are saying that "scumbags" were involved in the riots. And someone said that poorer people cared more about republicanism than comfy suburbia does. Why should the poor care about the north at all? They live in near ghetto conditions and when they finally protest (violently) SF hijacks it, transporting the riot to the north. The poor are being raped by SF.
One last thing I thought was weird was that the Gardai compressed the crowd making it easier for violent elements to hide and increasing the chance of confrontations.
Aren't you confusing things just a "wee" bit?
St. Patrick's day is a day to honour and remember a patron saint. It's not a political statement you ass! Parades (not marches!!!) on that day (March 17th) are not political and never have they been.
When small minded people confuse religion and political history this is what happens.
Enjoy Mayo. Hope it's not too "foreign" for you!!!!
A view from the States....
what I find a laugh (and ironic) is that these people from North Ireland were marching to bring attention to the victims of Republican violence. Excuse me, but the majority of civilian deaths were the result of Loyalist hits. Random and concentrated attacks on everyday innocent people going about their business and TARGETED for no other reason than that they worshiped the same God, but in a different manner.
I've no love for those bigoted, ignorant Orange bastards (and have actively worked against them on this end). Hope, and suspect, in time they'll all fade away. Also well aware of England's history..800 years of it in Ireland and elsewhere in the world where they went ot 'civilize' the rest of us. But this shite of Irish killing Irish has got to end at some point. Always a brilliant British tactic to divide and conquer, and in the nine counties they succeeded, using religion. Difficult to change hatred, but has to be done. Hopefully it begins up the Shankill or east Belfast.
It doesn't take half a brain to know what the real purpose of the march was. Whereas some of the marchers undoubtedly were there to protest at the deaths of their friends and relatives, the organisers came with a much more intelligent motive, which was to incite a reaction. It doesn't take the smartest of person to know that on the whole, those involved in the "Republican movement" are one or two semi-intelligent blokes who have control over a vast number of idiots. I live in Tallaght and I see these idiots every other day, all that "Up the Ra" rubbish. They are just uneducated morons who like to think people will respect the fact that they want an "Eire 32". At the end of the day, stupid people use violence because they don't know any better. The Unionists got the exact reaction they wanted, they go home looking like they took the moral highground while the primitive republicans destroyed the capital city their so-called ancestors fought to preserve.
Yesterday (Monday 27 February) , in 'The Evening Herald' newspaper , the following was published (on page 5) , by that organs 'Crime Editor' -
" A number of photographers , and myself , were taking pictures of the confrontation and we were surrounded by gardai who demanded that we stop and forcibly stood in front of us to prevent snaps . "
Anyone any ideas as to why the Gardai (acting under orders from up the ranks ?) would not want the scenes photographed ?
Sharon .
Indymedia Ireland did a brilliant job on covering these riots, something that a lot of people missed. I followed the story from the west coast of the USA, and there was nothing else out there- RTE radio couldn't be arsed to break away from their goddam sports coverage and didn't update their website with TV news until the next day. utterly dismal. other blogs, with the excpetion of flickr maybe, did a poor job too.
I reckon indymedia should get a cut of RTE's license fee, since they don't do the job they're supposed to be doing.
If there is one criticism it would be lack of quotes from the people doing the rioting or from the Love Ulster people or non-nartionals or local people standing by- but it might be difficult in the circumstances to risk doing this and it's not up to indymedia to commission stories...
thank you indymedia ireland.
I forget who made the observation but its a very good point that its the lower class that are voting for Sinn Fein. Of course, Sinn Fein are promising them everything and they are empty promises and nothing will ever be done and its from the same class that the IRA are recruiting.
Other people made a very good and valid point that why should the Unionists be allowed to come down here and fly the British flag. It was always going to antagonise and provoke people. Its not like people in the Republic would be allowed go up and fly the tricolour, not that we would anyway as we have enough sense.
The valid point that was made was we wouldnt be allowed walk down the Shankhill Road with the tri colour waving so why should the Unionists be allowed to come down here.
They love blaming the IRA for all deaths but they seem to forget that the loyalist paramilitaries caused just as many deaths. I think there was an era where it was very much tit for tat. If one group did something, the other would retaliate. I condone all violence but I just thought it was a valid point to make.
Now they're talking about coming down again. Are they stupid or what. I know nothing will be done but theres no harm writing in to our Government and voicing our opinion whether we agree or disagree with that sort of march happening down here. They may not do anything about it but at least they will know how many people object to the march.
I'm not sure how true it is but I overheard a rumour that theres to be trouble at the St. Patrick's Day Parade here in Dublin. Has anyone else heard this? I'll certainly be keeping out of the city if it is.
Bertie Ahern and the Irish government are entirely to blame for letting the march proceed down the main street of our capital city. People marching down our street that only a very short time ago stated that they would never recognise the "Free State". For Bertie and co. to allow such antagonists to march here, at such a critical and sensitive time, was nothing but a fatal mistake. To have our own police service to provide protection to loyalists and not their own people is a disgrace. I admire the protestors for their courage in standing up to and preventing the march of antagonists that have a history of killing and attacking our countrymen. The other theory was to empty the streets and stand back and say "so what" and laugh the antagonists out of it. What chance is there of that, because there would still be victory for our political adversaries and they would probably insist on this being an annual traditional orange march. These people are not reasonable and would still not willingly enter discussions, even if they did get to march. My point is, it is solely antagonism, and our government obviously have no care for our welfare, only political and monetary gain.
St. Patrick's Day isn't a political occasion...I didn't say it was...but tri-colours are not the national flag of Northern Ireland...as I said the flying of it doesn't bother me in Northern Ireland...so I don't see how people from the south should be offended if I was to bring a Union Jack down to Ireland!!!...not as if a flag has killed anyone!!!
As for Mayo being too "foreign"...I've been down there like over 20 times in the last year...I have no problem with the people of Ireland...particularly those in Mayo who are so welcoming to me!!!...I'll be out prancing away to any Irish song that comes on!!
As for my friend Del...the two words "Northern Ireland"...are you afraid to say those words...you're sooo like a typical Sinn Feiner!!!...love the swearing too...obviously you get a little wound up about known facts!!!
As for the loyalist march being in remembrance of people who have killed Republicans...if you're referring to members of the RUC...they were only doing their job against people who had obviously no care in the world for law and the ballot box!!!
As for loyalist marches not being welcomed in Dublin..."send them to London"...the same place where only a couple of years ago Sinn Fein/IRA were bombing!!!...the same place were Sinn Fein/IRA are now visiting the Prime Minister!!!
I am very laid back about politics and north and south issues...being a man of the ballot box...not about violence...but as we've seen in Northern Ireland...sometimes violence pays...hence what happened in Dublin...the parade was cancelled because of the threat of violence!!!
Once again...have nothing against the south...nothing against tri-colours waving in Northern Ireland...nothing against some people in Northern Ireland wanting a united Ireland...but I am against violence!!! Pity for the majority of decent Dubliners...their reputation for welcoming protestant northerners has been slightly blackened!!!!
The Love Ulster folk have the same right as anyone to protest. There is NO legislation in Ireland preventing such a parade or gathering in a public place (other than outside the Dail).
A suitable time to rehold this would be the same day as Willie O'Dea's 1916 "commemoration" this Easter. Let's see if the government has the balls to extend an invitation to their fellow Irishment insulted by fascists in Dublin...
The rioters weren't given to speechifyin'. I tried interviewin' many, but only Republicans would say anything at all, and even they were quite shy.
Just to point out that the disgraceful scenes witnessed in dublin were not the refelction of most irish. I never have agreed with violence but how the hell can the irish give permission for a group to march in our capital reflecting about people killed by so called terrorism. Maybe the should remember that they are in our country, a country that they invaded and have no right to be in so if that are that preocupied well then they should kindly pack up and go back to where they belong. That is of course if they know where they´re from cos i dont think anyone really wants them. IRELANDS´ 32.
Those rioting or orchestrating the riot belong not to republican organisations but to a Celtic Football Supporters Club
Just before the FAIR march was due to take place, most of the soon to be rioters emerged from a hostelry, associated with a Celtic Football Supporters Club, located on Cathal Brugha Street (adjacent to fromer Eircom offices on O Connell Street)
Take a close look at the pictures and the riot participants - Examine their jerseys, caps, scarves and other Celtic paraphenalia
Note that the vast majority of the rioters are wearing green and white 'hoops' in these pictures
It's easy to bash Republicans - I would urge you all to get your facts right first
The passage of time, investigative journalism, together with police investigation will likely prove the veracity of this fact.....
That has been confirmed.Aside from a number of Celtic supporter clubs a number of other Dublin based soccer clubs have been implicated, including Shamrock Rovers.Though I think both RSF and the IRPS had a hand in it also.
I was appauled that some had tried to suggest that Sinn Fein were involved.I was there along with a number of others to observe.We invited a journalist to stick close to us so that he could confirm to his readers that we would not so much as chant a slogan.The next day he tries to pin it on the Provos.
do your pontius pilate act all you want but SF members were active on Saturday. The crowds were also shouting Sinn Fein! IRA! How quickly you forget your own past. You stand in the tradition of de valera. welcome to the establishment.
In all fairness Pat you can hardly blame SF on the actions of all their members. I saw Labour Party members on the Mayday marches at the Phoenix Park. You would hardly blame Rabbitte and Gilmore on that now would you. The fact of the matter is that SF are the new WP. They organised the Joanne Delaney demos all over Ireland for that day to keep their members/supporters away. They must have shit themselves when she got reinstated.
Michael O'Brien is correct in identifying that Celtic group as a key component, and in asserting that they are not republicans.
However, republicans must to a certain extent hold up their hands on this one because they have allowed a situation to develop in which these half-wits think that they are in fact republicans because they support a British soccer club. SF for example sell lots of Celtic crap in their shop and use the venues in question for fundraisers so hardly surprisning that the knuckleheads are a bit confused. Some of them probably think that Bobby Sands played on the Celtic team that won the European Cup in 1967.
It's about time that republicans made it celar that Celtic and all the shite that goes with it has nothing to do woith them.
If I was in any position of power over there I'd invite the Ulster marchers back down again to Dublin and I'd ask all the good, decent folk of Ireland to come out onto the streets and, in a sign of good will, form a protective cordon around the marchers and let them got on with their business. Further more, I would ask the good people of Ireland to do this wearing Mr Blobby outfits. Not only would they offer excellent protection against any barrage of bricks, bottles, stones etc, it would make for a great spectacle and certainly diffuse any tension that might be in the air.
Good Points Being Made
by Dubliner Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:00
They love blaming the IRA for all deaths but they seem to forget that the loyalist paramilitaries caused just as many deaths. I think there was an era where it was very much tit for tat. If one group did something, the other would retaliate. I condone all violence but I just thought it was a valid point to make.
Who killed more Catholics and Members of the IRA than anyone else, The Brits , The Loyalists no it was the IRA. THe IRA killed more people than any other group did. I have always condemned murder.
Excuse me, but the majority of civilian deaths were the result of Loyalist hits. Random and concentrated attacks on everyday innocent people going about their business and TARGETED for no other reason than that they worshiped the same God, but in a different manner.
I've no love for those bigoted, ignorant Orange bastards (and have actively worked against them on this end).
You got it wrong your lot killed more civilians than any body. It has alway been our curse as a nation that killing is seen by the bigot as the only answer
Great idea, Andy. Me and the mates can't wait for the opportunity to infiltrate such an event. Last Saturday would be nothing compared to the possibilities that would present.
Mr. Blobby lookalike.
I see where your coming from but let me tell you this would be the best prepared force of Mr Blobby's ever to take to the streets of Dublin. Each Mr. Blobby would be chipped, fitted with Sat Nav and fingerprinted (see the size of those fingers!! Impossible to replicate). Any infiltrators will be easily located, swiftly ejected and, very importantly, fairly treated. The last thing Ireland needs, at this juncture, is a Blobby Sands.
i would just like to say, that the garda were not organised for this march when it was so very obvious there was going to be trouble!!!!
even though there was a lot of trouble it didn't stop us enjoying a really good weekend in dublin!
Observer,
You seem to think a Scottish football club is more abhorent than a bunch of terrorists, what a warped mind you must have.
I agree with what one fella said,
"it be alright if they came down, laid a wreath, met the president, and made there way home, but to have a pipe band and the union jack flying in our face is rubbing it in ..."
The peaceniks want to forget the past...live now...not 1798, 1916....Some of your ancestors fought and lost there lives to free a portion of your country. Others gave up and left it for other countries where they also suffered hardships.
Now don't you think it wouldn it make them roll in their graves to think that a pipe band and the Union Jack was going down the main streets of Dublin?
Its not good enough to parade through prodominantly Catholic neighborhoods in the North of Ireland, no, they have to take it down south and rub it in their noses too. F#$k democracy and freedom of speech...lets look at the fact of the matter....the parade has an underlying intention to provoke....you can't deny that.
F$#ken Orangemen, put them all in a large boat with a tiny hole in it and push them across the water that their bribed ancestors crossed a couple hundred years ago. There I'm sure, they can bang there drums, and fly their flags without the drawbacks that they may encounter in Belfast, Derry, or Dublin.
PM
Your all mad, Why go back to the past your saying Ireland was a united country untill the brits came over and thats what started all this trouble. Well if you want to go back in history was it not the Irish that came over in boats to kidnap and plunder the english welsh and scottish villages, that was long before the english invaded, and some could say that was the start. And the reason the republic is still catholic is due to the English, And the reason the north is mainly protestant is due to king Billy and the battle of the boyne.
Im currently living in Belfast but spent 12 years living in Waterford and think the irish are great such a beautiful place to live. im not protestant nor am i catholic, My point is there will never be peace as long as people go to the past. im sure most of you that have children dont want history to repeat itself
My great grandfather fought and was killed in the rebellion. He fought so that one day his kids and thir kids and so on could live in a peaceful world, free of oppression. He fought for freedom and for peace. I've heard a lot about him from my granddad, stories about the kind of man he was and i know he'd spin in his grave if he ever heard me talk like you. Those men fought for peace, you just seem to want to rip apart an establishment. You can't live in the past, that'll kill you, and probably others along the way.
I fail to see the offence in allowing disabled police or soldiers, together with bereaved relatives walking the streets of Dublin. The South welcomes all sorts of rabble from all over the world, but cannot extend the hand of friendship, nay tolerence compassion or understanding, to their own people who have been here for over four hundred years.
What about the process of post-conflict healing ?
If it takes 10,000 police OR army to ensure this peaceful march takes place, these resources should be provided... Failure to predict the conflict, failure to provide the appropriate resources, combined with the comments of Mary Harney post event, could be seen as almost deliberate incitement - This grouping was not the Orange Order!
Anyway, so what if the Orange Order want to march in full regalia down O Connell Street - The institution itself is an anachronism in the 21st Century and membership is falling is it not?
Allowing these groupings to march would over time disarm their membership of many of their prejudices - Failure to allow the peaceful protest on Saturday can only reinforce the tribal, intercommunal prejudices of both sides.
We tolerate Islamic extremists marching on our streets, but not the Orange Order - when will reality ever bite....
Anyway enough said
I would just like to make a number of points as a nationalist - that is to say, somebody who would like to see our country reunited by peaceful means and the occupying British forces withdrawn;
1) I would like to agree with the first half of Jimmy's mail above where he points out that only affluent, politically correct, middle-class Dubliners with their heads stuck up their ar**s thought that this march was a good idea and that the normal people of Dublin would welcome an Orange/Loyalist march in the city centre with open arms. The vast majority of Dubliners, the normal working class people, knew that this was a recipe for disaster once the plan was announced. Whoever agreed to the idea that an Orange parade, with full regalia, should march through Dublin city centre on a busy Saturday, needs their head examined. This idea is akin to having Gerry Adams and Co. marching up the Shankill with tri-colours, pipe bands, playing The Boys Of The Old Brigade and commemorating the Shankill bomber.
2) Did the organisers in the south not see the obvious significance of having Loyalists marching from the GARDEN OF REMEMBERENCE, past the GPO, past TALBOT ST (remember 1973) up to the DAIL whilst playing the Sash and God Save the Queen?
3) The problem I have with FAIR is that their condemnation of Loyalist violence is conspicuous by its absence. They planned to hold a picture of Robert McConnell in front of the parade. For those of you who don't know, Robert was a member of that loving security force called the UDR and he, along with other members of the British security forces, was responsible for the Dublin bombing in Talbot St in 1973 where 26 innocent Dubliners were killed. He was also responsible for the murder of 8 other Catholics in the north. BUT WHAT THE HEY!! LET'S HAVE A PICTURE OF HIM AT THE FRONT OF A LOYALIST MARCH WALKING PAST THE VERY PLACE WHERE HE MURDERED 26 OF OUR CITIZENS. NOT ONLY THAT - LET'S PLAY MUSIC AND WAVE OUR UNION JACKS!! The IRA put an end to Robert in 1976 and hence he became a "victim of IRA terrorism". I don't want to sound as though I advocate violence because I certainly don't. I just want to point out the hypocrisy of these marchers.
4) I have no difficulty with a handful of loyalists coming to Dublin in civilian clothes, without all the loyalist regalia; flags, pipebands etc. and laying a wreath and/or making some kind of symbolic gesture. I think an act such as this would have gained a lot more respect from ordinary citizens in the south. Maybe next time.
I think FAIR would be better off worrying about the lack of a loyalist ceasefire and loyalist victims of loyalist violence, like the 11 protestants who have been shot over recent months by loaylist paramilitaries. Perhaps they could call this organisation UNFAIR.
Interesting to see that the chap from Belfast up above states that the tri-colour is a foreign flag to the people of Northern Ireland. What people are you referring to; the 55% who claim British citizenship or the 45% who claim Irish citizenship? I think your mask has slipped!
The above posting is not mine but that of someone with the same name as me or using the name Michael O'Brien!
In the midst of allegatios and counter allegations this piece of news seems to have been overlooked...
Only 110 loyalists showed up in Dublin on Saturday for the cancelled Love Ulster rally and they had “no intention” of marching, a human-rights lawyer claimed last night.
The plan had been for the march to go past Dublin’s General Post Office to Leinster House, where a political rally was to be addressed by Families Acting for Innocent Relatives director Willie Frazer and Democratic Unionist Party Lagan Valley MP Jeffery Donaldson.
Belfast solicitor Pádraigín Drinan was accompanying an official observerfrom Washington DC when riots broke out. Protesters erected barricades along O’Connell Street and attacked gardaí. Several cars were set alight and surrounding buildings in the area were damaged.
Ms Drinan said much of the violence could have been avoided if gardaí had made sure the small parade began on time.
“I counted 110 people congregated at Parnell Square. They were beating Lambeg drums and marching on the spot. It was clear they had no intention of parading down O’Connell Street. With such a small number, they would have looked pathetic.
“The march was supposed to leave at 12.30pm and, at that time, the roads were clear. At 12.45pm, I asked a Garda officer why it hadn’t and received no reply. At around the same time, the first signs of trouble were occurring. If the parade left at 12.30pm, the trouble may not have been as bad,” she said.
continues: http://dailyireland.televisual.co.uk/home.tvt?_ticket=R...opp=1
You're clearly trying to provoke people. You're mixing up facts and trying to twist things I and others say in some feeble attempt to argue what is clearly a stupid opinion. I clearly said " ...... "people of the north" that consider the tricolour foreign" ..... to distinguish from those that don't see the flag as foreign, it was never about counties or Northern Ireland (wow, I said it!) or geography. You switch from Unionist flag to the Red Hand. I pointed out they are different. I know my counties and provinces thank you, but the confused gibberish you spouting seems to be confusing the whole point.
Plain and simple, Northern Ireland is Norhern WHERE???
If the US invaded England, does that make the US flag the national flag of England. Maybe. Is it right? Definitely not. This whole Northern Ireland has its own flag stems entirely from the English invasion and refusal to withdraw completely. End of story.
You are arguing a losing battle and know it. I really hope you are taking this standpoint just to provoke people because otherwise you are a pretty pathetic contribution to the human genepool.
As for the cursing, it's part of how many Irish people talk, from any class, but you wouldn't know that. Especially when annoyed by idiots like yourself. Clearly I'm not the only one to feel your comments are idiotic ... good on Emma, provopiper and the others who got on your case. If you don't like the use of language, you can do as I said before. By the way, I don't have republican ties but I am Irish, aware of my history and have a sense of what's right.
I thought I would just add my point to all this,
I am from the "North" I was never made to feel any thing but irish till I came to the republic.
I believe that the people did have a "right" to march, but the manner in which it was conducted was going to cause trouble.
What these people stood for was nothing short of crazy! They knew that a picture of a man they carried had killed people in the very street they walked.
I believe that I am part of Ireland and that my flag is the tri-colour, that I am irish.
but I don't think that I from the north will ever be accepted in the republic, which saddens me. It will cost too much to rejoin the counties to ireland, so I hope for some kind of inbetween knowing that finacially that we are tied to england but that we belong to the republic - the chances of that are slim to never!
Yes there were scum on saturday, but there was also people that did not feel comfortable with the british people parading through their streets, dublin is not their "Queens highway" as they are so fond of calling it so why antagonise people in this absurd manner
Can anyone enlighten me?
Patrick,
Why are you out there throwing stones at those poor men from the North that wanted to march through the nations Capital? All they wanted to do is play a couple of tunes dedicated to their beloved province? They arrived in Dublin all dressed up in their nice Orange order uniforms and they even brought their pretty flags with them, it was like a 1 month to St Patricks day celebration.
And I can not believe young men set fire to expensive vehicles around the tourist zones because of their presance. Clearly these usuall suspects did not get the memo that states "you are only allowed to set fire to cars in accepted designated high crime outlying areas of Dublin. Which should only take place after some effort has been made and the car has been stolen fair and square", very lazy attitude I am dissapointed. Cars on fire in Dublin should never make the national or international news, what is the problem with this younger generation, you dont do things like that on O'Connell Street. They just dont remember the good old days do they?, ungreatfull.
So apperantly next year the visiting marching band should bring their own private security that they are accustomed to (PSNI). Im sure they were disappointed with An Garda Siochana's response and equipment. Perhaps PSNI could let the Gardai borow some heavy machinery so that they can feel like they are at home and march unobstructed through any street in Dublin.
Perhaps these men of peace and goodwill can spread there message and rememberance without hinderance. These great men would probably feel safe marching through even the above mentioned designated high crime underprivilaged neighborhoods and bring some cheer and goodwill with their happy music and bright flags.
Patrick, I am sure you are as disappointed as I am in the weekends development. I know the Gardai and politicans were shocked by this small group of trouble makers. Who would ever have imagined there would be counter demonstrations for such a great event. What a marvelous idea.
I hope you small group of trouble makers can change your attitude if there is a Love Ulster march again next year. Perhaps Love Ulster could have other marchers from other parts of Ulster society such as the animal rights activists, alternative lifestyle, Greenpeace and those other you know who. I would like to bring my family to Dublin next year so that they can learn about the rich Irish culture and history and about our cousins up North without fear of violence. What if to save the government money, everyone marches together on March 17.
Thank you for letting me vent as I am surprised and outraged as every other important Politican and regular citizen in the Republic of Ireland. It seems that this behavior is acceptable for Belfast but not Dublin, no matter what the circumstances are.
Homer
Thank you for clearing that up but there are still other matters for you to deal with. Do you agree that the resistance to the Love Ulster March was Sectarian? Joe Higgins TD of the SP has fulminated against the young Working Class Dubliners who resisted the Loyalists on Saturday. Do you also take the side of the Gardai against Working Class protesters?
Anybody in the U.K who knows anything about Northern Ireland, knows that Britain would happily give it up.
If republicans truly want a united ireland, they should really think about what they would be taking on.
Its been a problem for hundreds of years (yes mostly started because of the brits, i know, i know) but its still a problem, drugs, gangs, bigotry, hatred,etc.
Billions, and I mean billions is pumped into its economy, in an effort to keep jobs, the peace and to stop people killing each other.
Nearly 40% of its employed population are civil servants, that is just not normal. The Rep.of Ireland has less than 12% and look how much that costs.
I could go on, but you get the idea.
So just in economic terms, just ask yourself, do you really want it? I didn't think so.
So stop all this shit, about who runs what. The UK doesn't want it, and The Rep.of Ireland just can't afford it yet. End of argument.
It seems walking through Glasgow at a Friends of Ireland parade with an Irish Tricolour is ok, and that to say no to this would be bigotry and sectarianism
but
To allow a few people to walk throug Dublin with the Union Flag etc is despicable? Can no-one see the hypocrisy here?
Also if you are a Glaswegian and you say to those people who had Irish Ancestry of only 80 years to "go home back to Ireland" you would get the Jail and would be a bigot
but
If your family went from Scotland or England to Ireland FOUR HUNDRED years ago you are still not accepted and should "go home"?
One more thing, nearly EVERY English Premier league team has someone flying the Irish flag proudly, with no trouble and no thought to anything wrong
but
Can someone imagine a peaceful Briton waving the Union Flag at an Irish football game? The truth is he would be MURDERED!
I know which country have the real bigots, don't you?
Jack - I'm afraid you are totally misreading the situation and perhaps this stems from a lack of knowledge re the history of the conflict in Ireland.
>It seems walking through Glasgow at a Friends of Ireland parade with an Irish Tricolour is ok, and that to say no to this would be >bigotry and sectarianism
The difference here is quite simple - the Irish army, apart from Jack Charlton's, have never invaded Scotland, they have never butchered their citizens, turned a blend eye during a famine (killing millions) while exporting that which was edible back to Ireland and they have never driven out the native population and planted people from Ireland (a la Turkey-Cyprus). Taking all of this on board it is probably safe to assume that the majority of Scots don't feel the same resentment towards the Irish as the Irish do towards the British who perpetrated the above acts over the past few hundred years. You may be interested to know that the Union Flag has been flown many times in Dublin over the past few years; Simple Minds concerts (Dublin), Ulster rugby matches (Dublin) and, of course, England soccer match (we best not go into that for obvious reasons). Perhaps a better comparison would be Iraqi citizens' reaction to the flying of the union flag in Baghdad. If Iraqis reacted in a similar way to people on Saturday would they too be called Bigots??
>To allow a few people to walk throug Dublin with the Union Flag etc is despicable? Can no-one see the hypocrisy here?
There is no hypocrisy here. Like I say, the Union flag has flown peacefully in Dublin many times before - the problem wasn't so much with the flag but with the hypocrites and sectarian bigots who were flying them. It is safe to say that FAIR have not condemned loyalist violence in the past - in fact, William Frazier thinks that Loyalists should not have been imprisoned for acts of terrorism. FAIR planned to carry pictures of Robert McConnell. See his background above. Now, who are the hypocrites?
>Also if you are a Glaswegian and you say to those people who had Irish Ancestry of only 80 years to "go home back to Ireland" you >would get the Jail and would be a bigot
I don't know about Glasgow but I have had this said to me many times in London. Apart from the small minority who rioted on Saturday I think the remainder of us, who are passive protesters, would prefer to say to those would-be loyalist marchers "please do not come down here with all of your loyalist regalia, playing provocative marching tunes and asking us to mourn people who killed innocent Dubliners with their terrorism. Instead, send a delegation with a wreath or whatever and we will respect your views"
>"If your family went from Scotland or England to Ireland FOUR HUNDRED years ago you are still not accepted and should "go home"?
>One more thing, nearly EVERY English Premier league team has someone flying the Irish flag proudly, with no trouble and no thought >to anything wrong"
Let's face it, it's not as though these Scots came over on the Stranrear to Larne ferry with their buckets and spades for a holiday. You should be asking yourself WHY WERE THEY PLANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NATIVE POPULATION WHO THEY DISPLACED? This is called colonisation and the Brits were quite good at it at one stage. The only problem of course is that it is morally wrong and you only have to look at India and Hong Kong to see that it doesn't last forever.
Your comment on the English premiership is untrue; twice I have had friends confronted around Old Trafford for hanging an Irish flag (in honour of the then Man Utd captain). You will also notice that Irish flags are not too prevalent at grounds like Chelsea, West Ham, Milwall etc. etc. As you know fans of these clubs are not too tolerant of Irish people or the West Stand at Lansdowne Road, which they managed to take apart while singing God Save The Queen some years ago.
>Can someone imagine a peaceful Briton waving the Union Flag at an Irish football game? The truth is he would be MURDERED!
English clubs, accompanied by Union Flag waving fans, visit the south regularly for friendly matches which pass-off trouble free. In fact Everton will be playing Bohemians in April. Let's see how many Everton fans are "MURDERED".
You really don't know much about the south of Ireland if you think this is the case. Are you three years old?? The "friendly" match I allude to above took place in Lansdowne Road some years ago where people waving the Union Flag rioted until they were shunted back on to ferries. They were far from murdered. Do you not remember this???
Ulster have played rugby in Dublin, waving Union and Red Hand flags and as far as I know there was absolutely no trouble whatsoever. In fact their fans were singing the sash and other songs, to the bemusement of Dubliners, in pubs around Baggot St.
Jack - if I was you I would bury my head in the sand or preferably in an Irish history book before returning here to comment. It is essential that people get their facts right before brandishing around words like bigots. Yes it's true there are bigots in the South but there are bigots in the North and in the UK too. I am not a bigot but I still did not want to see this march proceed because it was provocative and insensitive towards familes of the murder victims of the 1973 Dublin bombing in which loyalists and British security forces murdered 26 innocent Dubliners on a street past which the march was due to pass. SOME of the people due to march are apologists for loyalist violence and given the nature of these triumphalist orange parades in the North I was dead set against the idea.
>I know which country have the real bigots, don't you?
I'm not so sure you do Jack!! No blacks or Irish need apply!!
If Ulster men are not welcome in the republic how can ireland ,unite, Clearly sein fein and it's member's have shown, The world how they would treat Irish protestants in and all ireland .some of the fews from Irish republicians and nationlist readers, also showing their hatred to Irish protestants. it is clear that northern ireland should not be united at the minute ,as the unionist fears have come to light . People are hurting from bothsides ,blaming each other and living in the passed only inflames hatred, those who ignite hatred ignite the flame, As we know fires burn out of control like in the dublin roits , shops were damaged and looted , cars where burnt out people got hurt. when people fight you can only keep them apart. when we learn to live, work and play together . we would not be a united Ireland it would be New Ireland.
Isn't it amazing how people are just focuing on the protestors who rightfully stood against this digusting biggotted march. I have no problem with people commemorating their dead here on the streets of their capital city. But to come here, waving union jacks, a symbol of nazism against the Irish people for 800 years, and banging on their drums, angers me so much. These people claim that the majority of Ireland, 26 of the 32 counties of Ireland, are a serparate country to where they live and they suggest that anything that happens up in the 6 counties is none of the Republic's business. And they claim they are democrats......yet they constantly refuse to talk to a legally voted in party. And if this march was about remembering the dead, where were those commenorating the Catholics who were brutally murdered by protestant terrorist.......of which they are the majority of the dead. These bigots just came down to the capital to cause mayhem..........and torment anyone they could. It's about time the real picture came out here!!
Well , will the shoe be on the other foot come St paddys day will the orange men return the same hospitality as the irish did in dublin. Well is it not the same old thing ... hooded terrorist tri colours and people dressed up like little green men. if St paddy ,the scotsman, who is the saint of Ireland and not Northern Ireland clearly the we green men should go to ireland for there marches
What did everyone expect. Did they really expect people to wave flags and enjoy this parade. It was a disaster from the get go. First of all, the people who rioted on Saturday CANNOT be called republicans, they are a bunch a thugs who don't know the first thing about being a republican, they just wanted a fight. Nothing else needs to be said about this topic. It was a bunch of knackers having a fight with the Gardi. Have they forgotten that they live in the Pale, the most Brittish part of Ireland
What you should be ashamed of is not taking part in opposing this outrageous pro British parade made up of people who claim to be Irish but advocate foreign domination of Ireland. Even while the six counties are still under occupation you allow them to march through Dublin! Shame on all the Dubliners and Irish people who didn't turn out to oppose this parade. It's your fault that representing Irish patriotism is left to the "thugs" and "scum" who showed up to do so when you wouldn't.
And by the way: the pale is long gone, even though, evidently, it still stands in the minds of many RoI citizens.
If so many were offended by the march, why was there not a proper counter-demo, with banners, leaflets and press releases pointing out Willie Fraziers alleged links to KKK/UVF etc (if indeed you can actually prove any such links). Why were they lauding one of the Dublin bombers? Why not publicise this (again, if indeed you can actually prove this). Otherwise, why not just ignore a bunch of 200 or so retarded orange muppets? While you all bicker, there is one faction in Ireland who will be beside themselves with glee, just as the IRA were after Bloody Sunday. Result for the Billy Boys.
P.S. The Union Flag is the flag of Northern Ireland, and that was recognised by your elected Government when it recognised the GFA, following the clear approval though referendum by the electorate of the Republic, as well as the North.
Just one question that no one seems to ask. Why wee they given the authority to march and have a Garda excort to boot?
Did no one think that this would result?
Its the government's fault and nobody else , not RSF not "the Celtic supporters" the government,I dont live in Ireland but I was told about the march a month ago and even I could tell there was going to be trouble, every dog in the street could,to think that the government agreed with this I just cant get over ,this just proves how out of touch they are with working class people in Dublin,they have no idea whats going on at all,the Garda got a hammering because they have been hammmering the youth of the inner city all there lives , I think the Garda must step back and take a good look at how they police the city,you cannon be labled a scumbag just you wear a tracksuit and live in the flats , I know plenty of scumbags from D4 who live in big fancy houses,it was a backlash waiting to happen,
what about the irish working-class? it doesnt exist, its republican! like everywhere else the poor and hard-working are pro-society and stick to patriotism and morals like a flee to bullshit.
Everybody keeps calling the orange order the OO it has a kind o ring to it kind of like the SS not much in the difference between the two would'nt you agree !!!
"If so many were offended by the march, why was there not a proper counter-demo, with banners, leaflets and press releases..."
A counter-demonstration was organised , employing various banners (ie 'Unite Protestant , Catholic and Dissenter....' banner , for one) , leaflets were handed out (ie 'An Address to the People of Ireland...' ) and the first press release was sent out on December 18 2005 , and practically on a weekly basis from then untill the weekend of the loyalist parade .
And I have no doubt that RSF will organise another counter-demonstration , again employing banners and leaflets , when/if the second loyalist parade gets the go-ahead .
Sharon .
I find it interesting to note, in these days of chaos, that not one word was mentioned about this in the Australian media.
I am disgusted that this incident occurred but moreso that it has not been widely reported.
Cath,
Brisbane, Australia
I don't know about you Cath but my parents in melbourne saw it and rang me to find out what was happening
>And if this march was about remembering the dead, where were those commenorating the Catholics who were brutally murdered by protestant terrorist.......of which they are the majority of the dead.<
when is the true ever going to arrive the IRA murdered more Catholics than any one else. When are we going to stop.
Republicans killed around 150 Catholics (most for being alleged informers).
The UVF alone killed 713 Catholics for purely sectarian reasons (as oposed to the IRA killing 134 Protestants for this non-reason).
These are extrapolations and references from Malcolm Sutton's book,
Bear in mind these dead ... An Index of Deaths from the Conflict in Ireland 1969-1993
As morbid as it is, this headcount should be read by anyone who wishes to make comments on the Troubles. At the very least, it should remind, that neither side has a monopoly on suffering or victimhood.
Republicans killed over 2,000, Loyalists killed over 1,000. Other British forces killed 368 (including 84 without even an explanation, reason or excuse).
The contrasting number of Catholics to Protestants who were victims of sectarian violence, was indicative of a struggle where maintenance of prejudice and inequality were core dynamics.
Pro-British forces were discerning when it came to targetning members of paramilitaries. Ten times more Republicans than Loyalists were killed by them, even though the killing ratio by both sides was was 2:1. Law and Order, indeed. More than agents provocateur, they were a central player.
It would be only fair if Love Ulster and Unionists generally wre to come out from behind the cloak of legitemacy (that they were fighting evil criminals), and admit it was a war. The responsibilities must be shared - Republican bombs for political gain, pro-British civil conflict for status quo.
Terrorism is a poor man's war: War is a rich man's terror (Peter Ustinov I think).
The idea and the march itself were wrong. Full stop. It was incitement to riot and that's what happened. Regardless of who rioted and what their background was - regardless of their class. Obviously rich people are not going to riot. Do they ever? Their idea of a riot is to send in an editorial to The Irish Times but I am sure many well off citizens are rioting on the inside. The very idea of drumming and marching and placard holding orangemen on the streets of Dublin is incitement to riot. Pretending to be democratic is a false notion. It is like saying c'mon march down our streets - it won't bother us - we are beyond that. We are not beyond that, nor should we be. I suppose in years to come when we have regained our land so brutally taken from us in the first place, we can say, sure let that little crowd assemble themselves on our main streets and have their little pipe and drum session, but we haven't reached that stage yet and the politicians should be aware of these sensitive issues.
All killing is wrong - on both sides of the coin - but who started this whole mess. The British, that's who. Sure they would like to forget it ever happened and it's all in the past but the past is brought to bear through these inciteful marches. It's that simple. Sure it may be a new Dublin - a non-descript Dublin of multicultural restaurants with people of all nationalities and religions (let's not forget that catholic means universal) walking the streets but as the great philosopher Marshal McLuhan (himself a convert to Catholicism) once remarked 'multiculturalism is a grand experiment which the tribes will have to work out between themselves'. Time will tell and wounds will heal in time but now is not the time to parade one's grief in the face of people who have had too much grief heaped upon them.
I think its crazy that they were even allowed to march at all anywhere in the ROI. Do you think it would be alright to for IRA supporters to march in Belfast or London? Honest question maybe they have in the past. It seems that the the 'Northern' Irish/Scots/British, whatever you want to call them, want it to ways, they want their soverignty, yet they also want to be able to march in Dublin to protest. Personally i dont think the US would ever allow something like this to happen though Ireland really is a unique situation, but then again you get thrown out of the state of the union adress just for wearing a political tshirt.
I can't believe the photos I have just seen. I am irish and am in Australia for the year and this is the first time I have seen any photos of this riot. It is disgusting and embarrasing to look at the amount of vandalism and pure hate that has gone on.
Those people who were involved in this riot in any shape or form should be ashamed of themselves and have no riot to call themselves Irish.
If this is the future of Irish society, why bother coming home??
Those people who were involved in this riot in any shape or form should be ashamed of themselves and have no riot to call themselves Irish.
Isn't that the problem - the rioters appered, to me at least, to have come from the section of Irish society that benefited least from the so-called 'Celtic Tiger' - the Love Ulster parade was merely the trigger.
I looked at the areas of the city the arrestees came from and it occured to me that these are our 'slum' areas. We have a large section of underclass who have no stake in our society. Most of them would probably have already have been labelled 'thugs' for years, by the powers that be in our Tiger society. Give a dog a bad name, and all that jazz.
Maybe they're just living up to the labels forced upon them?
I'd love to know the number of minors arrested and then realeased, also which areas of the city they came from. How many of them have anything better to do? What amount of state resources is allocated to try and give these kids some purpose? Sweet FA, I'd say.
I'm from Scotland and there was a Republican march in Glasgow recently with people glorifying murderers/terrorists, yet nobody was injured. Maybe we're not as intolerant as they are in Dublin? It certainly looks that way. I pity Ulster Unionists having to put up with some of the attitudes displayed on here. I think it's clear that a "united Ireland" would be a absolute disaster for them.
To Mac....
then maybe you should take all the Unionists back to Scotland with you - because I never heard one of them call themselves Irish and this is Ireland after all. If they lived in your country I suppose they would call themselves Scots - or would they? Isn't that where they originated from?. Let them inflict all the pain and suffering on your people as they have veted on us and let them march down your main streets - if that is really what you want. This is Ireland, man, and people who live and work here are Irish people. This was a provocative march - pure and simple. Sure they are entitled to grieve and loss of loved ones is extremely painful but Republicans have had more than there share of pain. This land is for Irish people and those who want to be Irish - not for intruders who were planted here by the British to divide and conquer us. We will conquer ourselves - than you.
your reply reminds me of a joke I heard.
Two Nigerians arrive in Ireland, both determined to 'integrate' ASAP.
they have jobs in different places and agree to meet up in Dublin in 3 months time.
3 months later they meet in a pub. Both order pints of the black stuff.
They first Nigerian guy says:
"Well I had a great time integrating, I played a bit of hurling, went 'on-the-batter' loads of time, learned to play the Bodhran and the tin whistle, did a bit of the ould riverDancing an all that, how'd you get on?'
the second Nigerian guy turns to him, wipes some of the head of a pint off his top-lip, and says:
'Fuck off back to your own country, stop stealing our jobs, ya freeloading bastard'
'
Did either of 'those two (fictional) Nigerians' attempt to march in a loyalist parade through the streets of Dublin , do you know ... ?
The answer might go some way towards explaining the difference to you .
Sharon .
To "blaise".
You know and i know that Ulster Unionists are going nowhere. I suggest you deal with that fact rather than living in the past.
As a keen historian myself i could point out to you that Ulster was a Scottish Kingdom many centuries before the notion of "Irishness" got off the ground. Where do you think you got your Gaelic language from? Correct, us (don't pretend you didn't know). Even if that hadn't been the case, you have absolutely no right to tell people to "go home". All you have succeeded in doing is reinforcing my original statement.
Good day to you.
They were being "provocative". Really? Come on, use your head. I'll tell you what's provocative. "Civil marches" like the Republican march in my own country recently where the participants were decked out in full military combat gear. As far as i'm aware the people who were hoping to march in Dublin weren't dressed as "soldiers" and waving placards/flags of mudering terrorist organisations from all over the world. (ETA, Hamas, IRA). THAT'S provocative.
I do believe you're being a tad provocative yerself
I'm very happy being Irish and not British. Just as you appear to be happy being primarily British and not Scottish. Well, you're welcome to it Mac, we just preffered to do things our way rather than cling to the bosom of Britannia.
Btw: Isn't it nice th at Her Maj's Govt. are now preparing to cut you guys loose now that all the North-Sea Oil and Gas is running out. How nice of them to have your best interests at heart :)
How can you call a group which is protecting its own people from invaders - terrorists?. And Hamas and ETA are not considerered terrorists by their own people either. Hamas gives more money, food and clothing to the poor inhabitants of Palestine - much more so that those conniving, money laundering PLO. What about Sharon? There's another lovable terrorist if ever there was one. And George W - the great liberator - bombing the piss out of Iraq. Is he not a terrorist, too?. Wasn't Franco a terrorist? And what about that gem of a tyrant, Cromwell. I'd put him in there as the ultimate terrorist. Your historic myopia doesn't go unnoticed. We are not part of the United Kingdom which is your domain. Maybe Sean Connery could give you some advice of sovereignty.
Doesnt matter what a groups cause is once the resort to murdering innocents they are no longer classable as "freedom fighters" IRA, UVF, ETA, HAMAS... etc.
I am for real, nexis. Why do you only like to pick on the little (as you call) terrorists - afraid to take on the big boys U.S., England, Israel for example? Are they exempt as terrorists in you estimation? How convenient and big of you to turn your wrath on the little groups. There are much bigger fish to fry. Innocent people are killed all the time. For some unearthly reason, you find it acceptable for the the likes of the United States to kill innocent people in a war they have perpetrated under false pretense. Killing of all innocents is wrong. Terror is terror.
The US, England and Israel are countries, I assume that you are talking about the government policy of Bush, Blair & Sharon, regarding Iraq, I don’t think we went in for the right reasons, instead of scare mongering about W.M.Ds I would have stated Saddam was a tyrant guilty of genocide (over 200 Kurds in the 80s) and other crimes against humanity, also they should have waited for the second UN report, (but lets remember after Korea the UN would never want to go to war again, they operate peace keeping with sanctions and embargos).
As for Little Groups (I never called them that)? Do you even know how many millions these groups have in the bank? They get support from all over the globe. I will agree with you that the US troops record in Iraq is pretty poor, due in my opinion to poor training, what you are forgetting is that at least with the US, UK & allies there is some accountability, e.g. through a Military court and Military discipline. With these terrorists there is no accountability it’s a free for all providing you kill the correct people.
Your accusations are rather unfounded as again I never said that I “find it acceptable for the the likes of the United States to kill innocent people in a war they have perpetrated under false pretence” However for all your allegations I do agree with you that the “Killing of all innocents is wrong”. I suggest you read this thoroughly before making your response
To "Provocative".
You believe i'm being a tad provocative do you? I was going to ask you what the Unionists who were hoping to march in Dublin did that was so provocative. It's pretty pointless now, i assume they were just being themselves. And you (and a few thousand othgers) didn't like that at all. I didn't once gave you any hint as to my political beliefs, you don't know if i regard myself as British, Scottish, both, or whatever. You're merely guessing. "Britannia" is a geographical term which was given to the British Isles by the Greeks (Pretanic Isles) then the Romans (Britannic Isles). You (and i) can't get away from that fact. One more thing, i wouldn't go wetting my panties just yet about Scotland's oil running out. Once they've bled the oil fields dry in the East they still have the same amount of oil in the west which they haven't touched yet. I'm sorry to dissapoint you but don't blame me for that, blame mother nature :-)
It's not about YOU being British or not. You aren't. You said you aren't, so you aren't. It's about Unionists wishing to remain British. Is it not?
To "Blaise".
I'll keep this as short as i can. Terrorism (imho) is when a group of individulals deliberately target civilians (i.e. planting bombs in shopping centres) in order to 'persuade' them that it would be in their interests to get their government to act in a way that would please those the people who planted the bomb, who are normally fighting under the guise of "freedom fighter". It's a ridiculous idea, the man on the street hasn't got any say on the matter. The IRA, Hamas, and ETA are all guilty of this, imho. And just for your information i don't believe the British Army is. They may be guilty of some things but it isn't "terrorism" imho.
The US, England and Israel are countries,
well spotted there, Mac/Nexis, whomever
so you seem to distinguish between different violent types, as well as different types violence ?. You seem to think one is 'better' than the other. Why so? - you might need to elaborate on that one a little bit. You give no grounds why such a distinction is desireable or even necessary
I assume that you are talking about the government policy of Bush, Blair & Sharon, regarding Iraq, I don’t think we went in for the right reasons, instead of scare mongering about W.M.Ds I would have stated Saddam was a tyrant guilty of genocide (over 200 Kurds in the 80s) and other crimes against humanity, also they should have waited for the second UN report, .
what YOU would have done is immaterial, as it's not the matter under discussion here
The war is Illegal, and therefore it's perfectly legitimate to call it a 'Terrorist' act. Btw: "over 200 Kurds in the 80s" constitutes a genocide, does it? If you are going to use the word genocide the very least you could do is make some attempt (however meager) to use it an honest and accurate fashion
(Link: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gendef.htm and http://www.rrojasdatabank.org/agfrank/nato_kosovo/msg00....html )
What might constitute genocide in Iraq is the continuing usage by US and UK forces of Depleted Uranium weapons. Weapons wich are illegal under international law
(but lets remember after Korea the UN would never want to go to war again, they operate peace keeping with sanctions and embargos)
actually, let's NOT,
It's completely moot to the matter under discussion. No amount of obfuscation by you can change the fact that the US and UK were fully determined to have their little war, and no obstacles were to be allowed to get in the way.
The Downing Street Memomakes this clear, as you no doubt are already fully aware
(link http://www.downingstreetmemo.com and http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/docs/memotext.pdf )
Your accusations are rather unfounded as again I never said that I “find it acceptable for the the likes of the United States to kill innocent people in a war they have perpetrated under false pretence” However for all your allegations I do agree with you that the “Killing of all innocents is wrong”. I suggest you read this thoroughly before making your response
You might not have said : "I find it acceptable for the the likes of the United States to kill innocent people in a war they have perpetrated under false pretence”
but any reasonably intelligent person would have to conclude that anyone who begins his reply by stating
The US, England and Israel are countries, and in the next paragraph sets out to defend an illegal war that has killed many thousands of innocents, does indeed Find it acceptable for the likes of the United States to kill innocent people in a war they have perpetrated under false pretence”
no other reasonably intelligent conclusion is possible, unless one is using a new type of reasoning, never before revealed to the world.
Have you by any chance discovered Anti-Logic, and kept the discovery to yourself?
To "Blaise"
Genocide is one thing. Terrorism is another. I can't put it any plainer than that. They both have two completely different definitions. You shouldn't confuse the two.
I don't appreciate the insults being thrown around on this board, "ladies" and gentlemen. I didn't appreciate being told to "take them back" either. So let me ask you (while i'm in the mood - i.e. feeling brave enough), do, or do they not, do Ulster Unionists make accusations of "genocide" in the Republic of Ireland and allegedly have the figures to back it up? I've seen them (the figures). This is completely off topic but so were many things that were said. Let's not confuse this "alleged claim" with the issue at hand. We'll just go round in circles if we start that.
Apologies. Replace "Rep of Ireland" with "Ulster/N.I" and it was "allegedly" a few centuries back. Ethnic cleansing i think is the "accusation" they make in the Republic. So quit the Brit bashing, eh? (You don't know if i'm a "Brit" or not yet but it seems a tad hateful and defeats the purpose).
Just for the record, i never say I'm "British" if asked. But i am.
Oxford dictionary defines 'genocide' as 'the systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group'. This hardly applies to Saddam's killing of 200 Kurds (who he claims to have been out to kill him and his people) but it may well apply to what the English attempted to do to the Irish and the Americans to the Sunnis of Iraq.
The term 'terrorist' is also outlined in the same disctionary as 'one which engages in acts or an act of terrorism'. This would certainly apply to the United States, England and Israel. Terrorism, (I'll keep this simple for you) is terrorism - regardless of its origination and your biases.
Genocide was a term coined by the UN and is formally: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: * (a) Killing members of the group; * (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; * (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; * (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; * (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. It is this definition that some advance for the rationale for calling the UN sanctions on Iraq that killed well over 500,000 children genocide and suggesting that those sanctions were a crime.
To "blaise".
It's a misconception that "England" could do much of anything since there is no such a thing as an English government. I was merely explaining to you that i am not primarily British and it was pretty presumptuous to say i was.
Ris - I was only presenting the Oxford dictionary take on Terrorism and Genocide for those two - Mac & Nexis - to make a point - and because they are so British leaning - Oxford being in their backyard. I know it's not the be and end all- but it provided a succinct and palatable definition to neuter those two myopic contributors. Have you noticed how feeble their counter attacks are - resorting to nikpickyness - how dare I presume he's British? England is not a government, etc. Their stance is like your namesake, risible.
looks like you slipped up there Mac/Nexis
(You don't know if i'm a "Brit" or not yet but it seems a tad hateful and defeats the purpose).
You've already claimed to be Scottish, which would make you British, whether you liked it or not. Looks like you can't even manage to keep your lies straight.
Guess when you tell so many it gets hard to remember what you've already said.
It's obvious you don't even believe a word of what you are saying. You've been presented with a clear argument against your 'opinions' and have completely ignored it in favour of arguing in circles like a dog chasing it's own tail.
Round and round the trolling goes.....
hey folks, just figured i'd throw my 2 cents in the pot since it seems to be boiling over anyway...
on the one hand i'm kind of confused and on the other i'm not all all suprised by what i've been reading.... let me explain.
the first thing is more a question then anything else: it seems crazy to me that the north irish protastants, most of whom are of scottish descent when you trace it all the way back, would be at all interested in maintaining a union with england even as scotland itself is finally moving towards independance. their ancestors (*our* ancesters i should say, my family is scotch irish) were forced off our land in scotland and dumped in north ireland to do the english governments dirty work and be their buffer against our irish cousins, which is a pretty shitty situation to be in however you cut it; and is why so many of them (us) turned around and emmigrated to Canada and the US. as i understand it most protastants of scottish descent in ireland supported the independance movement early on, didn't they? i mean, isn't that why so many of the early republican leaders were protastants? i know that as of the 1800's in america at least most of the active scotch-irish organizations were explicitly pro-irish independance. what i can't understand is how in the world they went from that to being so rabidly pro-england. most scotch-irish americans are STILL pro irish independance. somewhere between the time our ancesters got fed up with living under english rule and emmigrated and now the scene apparently completely flipped, but for the life of me i can't find a single history that examines and explians that change. if anyone knows where i can find a decent history of that, i would LOVE to read it 'cuz i'm just plain mystified. (send me an email through my website, circlealpha.com).
the second thing, which is much more closely related to the march and the riot is this: at some level i kind of feel like anyone stupid enough to try and hold a unionist parade in DUBLIN of all places and bring in their union jacks needs to be removed from the genepool because they're obviously too stupid too breed. it would be like Americans holding a parade through mexico city with giant stars and stripes and signs reminding the mexicans of how much land we stole from them in the mexican american war. you'd better believe there would be a riot! it's just plain DUMB. calling the people who showed up to stop them from marching "Scumbags" seems kind of disingenious, it's like watching someone kick a dog and then acting suprised and putting down the dog for being mean when it gets surly and bites people. i honestly can't see a march like that as anything other then an intentional provocation. if ireland was a single nation and they were coming to dublin to advocate for their rights as an ethnic minority that would be a completely different matter, but it's not - it's a nation partitioned in two in order to satisfy the impirial appetites of a colonial power (england). by showing up with union jacks they're not coming as irish protastants to the irish capital, they're coming as representatives of a hostile post- colonial settler state that actively supports an ongoing foreign occupation, and forfeit any right they might have had to expect a warm welcome.
if that sounds too rhetoric-ish try a thought experiment: would there have been riots if a group of north irish protastants had come to dublin as part of an interfaith/intercommunal march/parade against terrorism and violence? cuz if they were really there to condemn terrorism as some people have suggested then they should have reached out to catholic groups to present a united front against it since it affects both communities and the violence won't stop without the support of both groups.
more then anything else, the description of the protest/counterprotest/riot reminded me of the kinds of situations we get in the States when white supremecists try to hold rallies in communities of color. typically it goes something like this: 10-20 kkk/neonazi/whatever idiots show up, 100 cops come out to "protect" them, and anywhere from 2-600 people who just plain hate fascists show up with baseball bats to confront them. the cops, predictably, jump in to defend the right wingers and the protest inevitably turns into an anti-police riot. it's like clockwork and it's COMPLETELY predictable.
i dunno, i'm probably missing something here. I don't live in ireland, it's not my community that just got torn up in a riot, so i obviously can't claim to be an authority on the issue. and it's obviously easier for me to sympathize with the protesters/rioters then someone whose car just got burned because they happenned to be parked in the wrong part of town at the wrong time. basicaly i can't tell ya'll how to react and i wouldn't presume to do so, but from this side of the pond at least it seems like sheer stupidity to act suprised that people rioted against the orangemen and against the police who were protecting them in that kind of situation.
like i said, just my 2 cents, take it for whatever it's worth or toss it out if ya like.
"it seems crazy to me that the north irish protastants, most of whom are of scottish descent when you trace it all the way back, would be at all interested in maintaining a union with england even as scotland itself is finally moving towards independance"
for a start its spelt protestants, second its not a union with england its a union with the UK, and third Scotland has a devolved assembly which is not independence, California has its own state assembly but you wouldn't say its moving towards independence!
Whenever I have met Northern Unionists, I have always relish the look on their faces when I inform them that in London, 'we're all 'micks''. Makes no difference to the majority over there if you come from north or south. Many of them don't have a clue whether Dublin is in the north or the south.
Ian, give it a rest will ya. That poor Californian guy was simply trying in earnest to get a read on the situation, so why pick on his spelling and lack of knowledge of Scotland's position in the UK. He did offer some valid points for discussion and you responded by picking on his spelling, etc, and telling him there are many reasons for this, without offering him any. Big help, you are. I'm surprised you didn't jump all over his use of 'Scotch Irish', which sounds like a hybrid Celtic spirit. These are harmless mistakes made by a guy who has told you that he is not an authority on the situation but willing to listen to those in the know. I'm sure if you asked him to break down the Mexican/American scene for you he would be more helpful that you are at offering your insight into the episode on debate here.
Just reading through the posts, I see a guy called Nexis says that Saddam killed 200 kurds. Surely that is some mistake - that is such a tiny amout.
Just a quick google search comes up with many estimates of how many people he killed, but don't forget, he started two wars, and is responsible for many internal massacres.
One starting point is the article below, which is a neat summary, and estimates around 1million, out of a population of 22million (4% of the population).
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5773
I am sure people will have different numbers but that is the order of magnitude that we are talking about.
"Whenever I have met Northern Unionists, I have always relish the look on their faces when I inform them that in London, 'we're all 'micks''. Makes no difference to the majority over there if you come from north or south. Many of them don't have a clue whether Dublin is in the north or the south"
First off, Northern unioinists are well aware of how little the average English person knows about the World never mind their own country, in fact, a lot of us where the "micks" cap with pride. It of course being the nickname for the Irish Guards which of course is one of the many units we man and maintain. Would it surprise you to know that there are currently 50,000 Ulster micks in uniform?
Besides, practically every unit we have formed has the word "Irish" or "Ulster" in the titleso we really don't have a problem with our national identity, in fact, at least we have always been ready to fight (and die) for it, can the southerners say the same?
"Ian, give it a rest will ya. That poor Californian guy was simply trying in earnest to get a read on the situation, so why pick on his spelling and lack of knowledge of Scotland's position in the UK. He did offer some valid points for discussion and you responded by picking on his spelling, etc, and telling him there are many reasons for this, without offering him any. Big help, you are. I'm surprised you didn't jump all over his use of 'Scotch Irish', which sounds like a hybrid Celtic spirit. These are harmless mistakes made by a guy who has told you that he is not an authority on the situation but willing to listen to those in the know. I'm sure if you asked him to break down the Mexican/American scene for you he would be more helpful that you are at offering your insight into the episode on debate here."
Well, Blaise, I think the poor Californian dude knows more than hes letting on, I mean talking about a "colonial settler context" makes him sound like a fully paid up shinner! He brought up Scotlands position in the UK, not me!
For the record, I don't have a problem with Scotch Irish/Ulster Scots as that is the ethnic group I am from. For someone who claims he is not an authority on the subject and then to say "these people are dumb and should be removed from the genepool" amazes me.
"reminded me of the kinds of situations we get in the States when white supremecists try to hold rallies in communities of color. typically it goes something like this: 10-20 kkk/neonazi/whatever idiots show up, 100 cops come out to "protect" them, and anywhere from 2-600 people who just plain hate fascists show up with baseball bats to confront them. the cops, predictably, jump in to defend the right wingers and the protest inevitably turns into an anti-police riot. it's like clockwork and it's COMPLETELY predictable"
Aaaa, the old protestants are nazis defence, the one we have heard so many times before, instead of accepting our existence the old nazi bandwagon is rolled out for everyone to jump on, it goes like this, we share an island with a million people we just don't like, we can't give any decent reasons so what we'll do is just brand them all nazis and declare their existence abhorrent and therefore unacceptable.
The only predictable thing about the above example is that it has been dragged out yet again!
Your last name wouldn't be Paisley, by any chance would it? :) (it's a joke, go with it)
Let me say firstly: I agree TOTALLY with your statement
I think the poor Californian dude knows more than he's letting on, I am, in fact, convinced of it.
secondly: Aaaa, the old protestants are nazis defence
All Protestants might not be, but Ian Kyle Paisley (I hope that's not really you, Ian Kyle) comes close. Do you know much about his 'theological philosophy'? The man has stated in public that if you don't believe what he believes ('theologically' I mean) then you must be in-league with the Anti-Christ (I am of course paraphrasing).
That sounds like a very hard man to be good neighbours with, would you not agree?
First off, Northern unioinists are well aware of how little the average English person knows about the World never mind their own country, in fact, a lot of us where the "micks" cap with pride
Not the ones I've met. I think it would be wise to speak only for yourself
Would it surprise you to know that there are currently 50,000 Ulster micks in uniform?
Not at all, in fact it's a subject we could go into sometime: the connection between poverty and military enlistment
we [you?] really don't have a problem with our national identity, in fact, at least we [you?] have always been ready to fight (and die) for it, can the southerners say the same?
So I take it then that you are/were a member of the British Armed forces? I'm not totally convinced that being ready to fight (and die) for your national identity is a really clever thing to do, but you're welcome to hold that opinion if you wish. I am nothing if not a pluralist, when it comes to diversity of opinion.
However I think you've talked yourself into a corner by voicing such opinions, as I now feel oblibed to direct your attention to the 1916 Easter Rising, The IRISH War of Independance 1920-1922, and the Armed Campaign of the Provisional IRA 1969-2003.
I take it from your strident championing of 'being ready to fight (and die) for your national identity' that you are (surprisingly) that rarest of creatures: an IRA-supporting-Unionist?
The reverend Ian Kyle Paisley certainly wasnt in ww2 . Although of military age he avoided military service of any kind . Oddly enough the orange order took the decision to cancel its parades during ww2 . The sight of 1000s of able bodied young men parading around in sashes , proclaiming loyalty to the crown wouldnt have looked good at all , especially in front of the 1000s of us troops stationed in the north .
"Not the ones I've met. I think it would be wise to speak only for yourself"
-thanks for the advice but I've worked in England since 1997 with the English and am well aware of their education systems failings.
"I'm not totally convinced that being ready to fight (and die) for your national identity is a really clever thing to do"
-no-one ever said it was clever, in fact its a selfless thing to do, something you wouldn't understand, I suppose your a Norman Kember fan as well?
"I take it from your strident championing of 'being ready to fight (and die) for your national identity' that you are (surprisingly) that rarest of creatures: an IRA-supporting-Unionist?"
-no
The reverend Ian Kyle Paisley certainly wasnt in ww2
-wasn't he born in 1926? so he would have been at college when the war was on?
Oddly enough the orange order took the decision to cancel its parades during ww2 . The sight of 1000s of able bodied young men parading around in sashes ,
-I think you'll find that those able bodied men were either away in uniform or building Aircraft/ships in Belfast ship yard, your in no position barry to question the committment of others to the fight against facism when so many in your community practically worshipped the nazis!
Your two replies to my statements contradict each other:
1)Me: "I'm not totally convinced that being ready to fight (and die) for your national identity is a really clever thing to do"
you: -no-one ever said it was clever, in fact its a selfless thing to do
2) Me: "I take it from your strident championing of 'being ready to fight (and die) for your national identity' that you are (surprisingly) that rarest of creatures: an IRA-supporting-Unionist?"
You: -no
also:
The reverend Ian Kyle Paisley certainly wasnt in ww2 - wasn't he born in 1926? so he would have been at college when the war was on?
Probably, but he is a rabble-rousing-bigot, wouldn't you agree?
Paisley's use of the title 'Dr.' derives from an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree awarded by the unaccredited Christian college named Bob Jones University in Greenville, South Carolina. Bob Jones, Jr. was a close personal friend and a co-leader with Ian Paisley in the international Fundamentalist movement, and Paisley continues to maintain a friendly relationship with the institution.
Publicity was gained by outbursts against Catholicism and the "Romeward" inclinations he attributed to other Protestant churches, and he rose to prominence attacking both ecumenism and the granting of full civil rights to a disadvantaged sector that was largely Roman Catholic. Dismissed as a rabble-rousing bigot in established Unionist and Orange circles, he eventually challenged these with his own version of both political party and Orange Order.
He opposed efforts by Terence O'Neill to deliver civil rights to the minority nationalist community in Northern Ireland, notably the abolition of gerrymandering of local electoral areas for the election of urban and county councils.
A Loyalist paramilitary-style organisation was formed on 10 November 1986 by Ian Paisley, then leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), Peter Robinson of the DUP, and Ivan Foster. The initial aim of Ulster Resistance was to bring an end to the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Following a rally in the Ulster Hall in Belfast, other rallies were held in towns across Northern Ireland.
"Ulster Resistance is not for the faint or half hearted and we will use all means which are deemed necessary to defeat the Agreement." Ian Kyle Paisley, Ulster Resistance rally, Belfast, November 1986.
The group was organised in nine 'battalions' and members wore a red beret. In November 1988 there was an arms find in County Armagh and the subsequent arrest of a former DUP election candidate brought accusations of links between DUP politicians and armed paramilitary groups. The DUP claimed that party links with the organisation had ended in 1987. Two members of Ulster Resistance were arrested in April 1987 in Paris along with a South African diplomat. The weapons imported from South Africa were divided between the UDA, the UVF and Ulster Resistance. The arms consisted of 200 AK47 assault rifles, 90 Browning pistols, 500 fragmentation grenades, 30,000 rounds of ammunition and 12 RPG 7 rocket launchers.
"I will kill all who get in my way", said Paisley, after a loyalist rally in 1968. He shouted this out at some reporters.
In reference to the Ulster Unionist Party's Jewish candidate, Harold Smith, he said, "The Unionist party are boasting he (Harold Smith) is a Jew. As a Jew, he rejects our Lord Jesus, the New Testament, Protestant principles, the Glorious Reformation and the sanctity of the Lord's day. The Protestant throne and the Protestant constitution are nothing to him."
In 1968, in a heated debate with the fierce Republican Bernadette Devlin, he responded to her accusations of his hypocrisy by saying that he, "would rather be British than be fair."
In my life experiencieI have seen nothing but hardship and pain.I learned to live with this at the hand of the authorities, I still will and will continue todo so . STREET SEEN is whats happens on the street , Let me say the story of my life , same story same situation.
Every day , I wonder whats next, YOU TELL ME.....I HAVE TO ATTEND COURT ON THE 29 JUNE 2006,TO BE CONVICTED OF BEING HOMELESS .MY GRANDFATHER TOLD ME ,I HAD FOUR GREEN FIELDS ,AND ONE OF THEM WAS TAKEN. WHAT HAVE I NOW..SIN E AN SCEALA
Homeless??
But yet you still have internet access!!
There are cafes in town that offer net access for a euro an hour, and some public libraries offer free net access - if you can find a gaf in Dublin that costs less than 250,000 euro, or a housing list that doesnt have a waiting time of less than two years, let us know. About 12% of the government's "planned target" (yeah, right) for social and affordable housing was built last year. The 10,000 affordable houses supposed to have been built under the partnership deal never materialised, yet I'll bet the unions will happily sign off on another deal again... so there's your answer, smart arse.
There are cafes in town that offer net access for a euro an hour, and some public libraries offer free net access - if you can find a gaf in Dublin that costs less than 250,000 euro, or a housing list that doesnt have a waiting time of less than two years, let us know. About 12% of the government's "planned target" (yeah, right) for social and affordable housing was built last year. The 10,000 affordable houses supposed to have been built under the partnership deal never materialised, yet I'll bet the unions will happily sign off on another deal again... so there's your answer, smart arse.
Who says everyone has to live in Dublin, its crowded enough as it is, and if all the "gaffes" are costing 250,000 euro at least, well people are paying for them aren't they???
Whether net access is a euro an hour or not is not the issue, if he is homeless and unemployed then I would say he has better things to worry about than web surfing............Oh and I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb ass like you any day.
That is an open question. Are people really paying for them or saddling themselves with unsustainable mortgage debts in order to get a roof over their heads.
Freedom- if it is to have any meaning - must include the freedom to avoid encumbering one's self with unsustainable debts ...
The prevailing economic system makes that very difficult for most people .....
But maybe you work in a bank and have a different perspective ....
We offered thousand siginturiers to the Dublin government , they did not listen' WE SAID THE HOMELESS ARE REVOLTING', I Am in court on the 29 of june', Where will I be then ' THEN HOMELESS WILL REVOLT ,REGARDLESS.
Re. at least, well people are paying for them aren't they
by daddy wharbucks Sun May 21, 2006 11:13
That is an open question. Are people really paying for them or saddling themselves with unsustainable mortgage debts in order to get a roof over their heads.
Freedom- if it is to have any meaning - must include the freedom to avoid encumbering one's self with unsustainable debts ...
The prevailing economic system makes that very difficult for most people .....
But maybe you work in a bank and have a different perspective ....
-of course people have the choice to abstain from getting a mortgage, they just have to live with the consequences of their choice, being saddled with a huge mortgage may not seem a nice situation to be in but when a person "downsizes" or moves to a cheaper part of the country they seldom complain when they have the equity in the bank!!
Its the people who snap up several cheap properties for the rental market thereby raising the price of properties beyond the grasp of "ordinary people".
If you look at it this way.
The British have been to us like the Nazis have been to the Jews I mean the majority of the population have been against the britsh government from day 1 which was roughly 800 years ago......and to march through the street! I would have thought they would have a bit of sense to know that a lot of people dont want them in the country or waving the union jack and banging drums. . . .
I'm not saying what some of the protesters did was right I'm merely saying that in a strange sense ,the riots and protests could have been easily predicted. . . .if the government stopped sucking up to america , took their thumb out of their ass and looked at the situation. . . .
well thats my say in the matter
Goodbye
As to the comment that the British are in Ireland because they are sucking up to the Americans is ludacris. Most American believe that the British government needs to let the Irish govern themselves. And most will point to the war in Iraq. Do you honestly believe that a country as diversity in culture that the American people want to be there. It is the agenda of the idiot government there and not the people. But let me ask this question if the British government pulled out today how many would die tomorrow.
So stop heaping blame on another country and other people. And look at the agendas of the people in governments and organizations not generalizing its people.
Fuck that we have our own independant rights and dont have to listen to shit!!!!
All these fuckin poeple walk around and notice nothing....
But I notice the corrupt system we live in!!!
I look at it thuis way!!! We have to right sto do wat we want and dont need governed if we make up our own rules that are still just but dont limit our personal thoughts!!!