Short article on Irish prison labour by Fintan Lane

by Kafka Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:16

Hi Pushkin and Luxemburg: I knows more about jail that you two put together.

Signed

Franz Kafka

by pushkin Sat Jan 14, 2006 20:02

We oppose all of the running dogs of Capitalism. Never the less we want cats and dogs to unite and recognise that their common enemy is Capitalism. we have successfully unionised sheep dogs. They have broken their chains and are now looking for baaack pay.

Pushkin

Secretary for Inter-Species Solidarity
Vanguard Leninist League
Irish Section
Provisional International Secretariat of the Fourth International (International Centre for Reconstruction).

by Xavier Sat Jan 14, 2006 18:17

I agree Luxemburg, I did not intend to suggest that the anarchist response was the only one.

by John Sat Jan 14, 2006 18:09

It is a left-wing activist (after all Fintan Lane is a member of the ISN) who has raised this, so it's not entirely fair to say the left has 'dodged' the issue. That said, a lot of the other left groups (the Trotskyists in particular - SWP, SP, etc) probably don't have a good track record here. On the other hand who does?

by luxemburg Sat Jan 14, 2006 18:02

Before you get too carried away with the idea of the anarchists being the only ones concerned with prisoners rights Comrade X, the article was written by a member of the ISN and posted on the ISN website, and last I heard they're not anarchists, though the trots might think they are! Anarchists have a long and honourable tradition of defending and organising prisoners but they don't have a monopoly.

by observer2 Sat Jan 14, 2006 18:01

now that prisoners have the right to vote the political parties of the left surely have a responsibility to consider these views given that it likely most prisoners would vote left or at least come from left voting areas.

by Xavier Sat Jan 14, 2006 17:45

But no response from Labour, Sinn Fein, S.P, S.W.P, R.S.F., Greens or anyone else for that matter.

Surely the anarchists aren't the only ones with an opinion on this?

by Xavier Sat Jan 14, 2006 17:37

http://www.325collective.com/prisons.html

by me Sat Jan 14, 2006 17:30

It's an interesting issue but ultimately will be dodged by the various leftie grouplets including the anarchists. The Left by and large has absorbed much of the prejudice against prisoners.

Its not just that it links in with wider issues as pointed out by fintan and one of the comments, its that the vast, vast majority of prisoners come from working-class backgrounds. Why do poor working-class young males turn to crime and end up in prison? If you start looking at these issues you inevitably focus on the society we live in and the inequalities that dominate people's lives.

Has the Left ever raised the issue of prisoners rights before? Do lefties really care? Do they (we) see the connections?

by Republican Shinner Sat Jan 14, 2006 06:59

Do they still believe in the liquidation of the Gent... er, the bourgeoisie?

by Pushkin - VLL PISFI (ICR) Fri Jan 13, 2006 19:10 Catalonia

Leon Trotsky would never have written such tosh. True Socialist Democracy reigned when he was in power in the USSR. Prisons were like holiday camps, the guards (known as redcoats) tended to the prisoners every need.

Pushkin

Secretary for Inter-Species Solidarity
Vanguard Leninist League
Irish Section
Provisional International Secretariat of the Fourth International (International Centre for Reconstruction).

by Martin Gregg - none Fri Jan 13, 2006 18:53 ianmco at yahoo dot co dot uk

Fair play Fintan, as an ex prisoner who has posted on indimedia regarding the lack of penal reform in this country, i applaud anyone who is willing to publicly contribute to the debate.Because more than anything, we do need a debate.

by X Fri Jan 13, 2006 18:33

Just thought of this - it could be Leon Trotsky posting as well, sorry Leon from WSM if it actually is Trotsky.

by X Fri Jan 13, 2006 18:31

Is this the Leon of the WSM who entertains us on occasion? If this is the case then it is rather odd views for a supposed Libertarian to be disseminating.

by Leon Fri Jan 13, 2006 18:25

If the state takes your rights away there is nothing you can do about it. That's the reality.

I'm sure th JJ who think that life is based around shopping and doing coke doesn't care about that reality; don't worry JJ you still have the right to consume.

by JJ Fri Jan 13, 2006 17:32

Rights that the government 'vindicates'?? A statist understanding of rights if I ever heard one!

By the way, prisoners do have the right to vote in Ireland. Twas made inoperable up to now but a new bill put forward last month by the government means that they should be able to exercise their franchise in the next general election.

Doubt if they'll be voting for the PDs anyway.

by Lone Fri Jan 13, 2006 17:30

After that wonderful insight I no longer see the point in living.

by Leon Fri Jan 13, 2006 17:15

Prisoners have no rights. IN fact none of us do. The state vindicates your rights in so far as is practicable. This has been interpretedt to mean that prisoners can't vote for example. Certainly in the case of prisoners it is not clear what rights they do and don't have.

by Observer2 Fri Jan 13, 2006 16:00 observer.two at gmail dot com

Fintan Lanes piece is good. We need more analysis of what is going on within the prison system. There appears a complete reluctance to address the serious defincies within the whole prison system including the fact that it is one of the most expensive in the world and yet has one of the worst rehabilitative records.

Estimates of it costing 100K to keep each prisoner incacarated each year are frightening when you consider the systems 70%+ failure rate. Lock them up attitudes are failing us because eventually the day comes when the prisoner must be "unlocked" and he is returned into society .

It is therefore essential that prisoners be supported to address offending behaviour in order to rehabilitate. Maybe it's time people started to listen to ex prisoners when they speak on this subject.

by Xavier Fri Jan 13, 2006 14:39

Prison reform and prisoner rights should not be seen as a single issue campaign. It is merely part of the wider campaign against capital. The example given by Fintan Lane of the exploitation of workers and the evidence from the U.S shows that capital will exploit all.

by anon - iamnotmycrime Fri Jan 13, 2006 14:24

.

by anon Fri Jan 13, 2006 13:51

It would be interesting to see whether congress will include the issue of prisoner wages/conditions in their "social partnership" talks.

It appears that McDowell is intent on following the Blairite model and privatising our prison system. This wil probably include some version of the Incentives and Earned Privileges (IEP) Scheme which is effectively slave labour. A study of the new prison rules would appear to confirm this with their reference to the participation by prisoners in "authorised structured activity".

Irish prison rules 2005 link

http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/pcJUSQ6DKN8U-en

by Fintan Lane Fri Jan 13, 2006 13:40

I agree fully with your last point.

by anon Fri Jan 13, 2006 13:38

The reason for anonymity is because of the societal prejudice against prisoners.

It is of course welcome that you have raised this issue. In raising it you cause debate on the whole penal reform question. As you can imagine, had it been raised by a convicted criminal(not matter whether thay are reformed or not) it would be met with the usual prejudice.

by Fintan Lane Fri Jan 13, 2006 13:15

I don't like responding to anonymous contributors to indymedia, but I'll make an exception because you may simply be confused.

I don't draw any distinction between those in for very serious or minor offences when it comes to prisoners rights. A right is a right, not a privilege to be dispensed as the authorities see fit. All prisoners are entitled to human, civil and labour rights.

My point, which you seem to have misread, is that the antagonism that many people have towards prisoners is based on the fact that a number of those inside have done very nasty things. It would be foolish to ignore this reality, but it doesn't mean that I'm suggesting separate treatment with regard to labour rights.

I fully agree with you that this is a issue that should have been discussed long before now. I brought it up because I felt obliged to. We're either serious about labour rights in this country or we're not. I believe we should be, and prisoners are as entitled to such rights as anybody else.

by anon - Iamnotmycrime Fri Jan 13, 2006 13:02

Fintan Lane writes

"Not surprisingly, many people take a hostile view and feel little sympathy for prisoners. And why should they? Our prisons contain many criminals guilty of the most heinous of offences. "

and goes on to make an apparent distinction between these and other prisoners who are in prison for "minor offences"

Surely all prisoners should have the same rights. Surely all prisoners should have access to rehabilitative schemes.

While it is welcome that prisoner rights issues are being discussed, it is unfortunate that it takes the very short term incarceration of a leading academic before concerns are raised.

A prisoner is a human being and should be seen as such, the practice of equating the prisoner with their crime is a dehumanising practice that attempts to strip away the humanity of the prisoner and therby make it appear more justifiable to abuse that same prisoner.

by anon - IAMNC Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:43

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=73682&search_text=martin%20gregg

by Xavier Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:39

Interesting article on the same subject

http://www.325collective.com/prisons_aramark.html

by MediaWatch Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:31

Link to Village article should read:

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?sid=1&sud=41&aid=587